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  #1  
Old 27-02-24, 04:08 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Technically WWI Period OR's Royal Air Force Bronze Cap Badge

I noted a post on here from 2014 where a member asked if there was anyway
to tell if a Metal OR's RAF badge was WWI "period" or not. He was told there
was no WWI "period" metal "version" of the badge and all RAF OR's badges post 1919 were all the same.

I then purchased a medal group to Motorcyclist/Dispatch Rider 64906 Pte 1. John Minns. He enlisted in the RFC on 16 February 1916 and was demob'd at Halton Camp in July 1919 and transferred to RAF ā€œGā€ Reserve on 7 August 1919. The group came with his medals, paper work, dog tag and the attached two cap badges. Minns had nothing to do with the RAF after 1919 as he moved to Canada. You will note that the OR's Royal Air Force cap badge he was issued in 1919 is bronze with bronze lugs identical to his OR's Royal flying Corps cap badge. I have not seen any such documented badge for the RAF in the 20s -30s etc. The dates above seem self-explanatory. No doubt some of the first OR's metal cap badges for the RAF produced in 1919 were this "bronze" style. They then went to the yellow brass etc.

Anyway thought I would share that with y'all.

Ken
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  #2  
Old 27-02-24, 05:21 PM
blueboy684 blueboy684 is offline
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Default Not so sure

I have been actively collecting RAF badges since 1976 and whilst I know never to say never, I have not come across a bronze RAF OR cap badge in all that time even though I was sold one pertaining to be bronze. After a bit of a clean up it turned out to be a just VERY dirty brass badge.

That is to not say that I don't believe you but in my opinion (which counts for not a lot) I think this example and possibly the RFC badge as well could be brass.

(Dons tin hat and body armour and goes into hiding!)
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  #3  
Old 27-02-24, 05:31 PM
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We all denote taper slider with crimp mark to be a good indication of a WW1 badge, now put these onto an RAF badge and what do you get? and will leave it there!
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  #4  
Old 28-02-24, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy View Post
We all denote taper slider with crimp mark to be a good indication of a WW1 badge, now put these onto an RAF badge and what do you get? and will leave it there!
....One on these???...
Tony.
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  #5  
Old 28-02-24, 04:15 PM
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It just looks dirty to me.
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  #6  
Old 28-02-24, 07:13 PM
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Tony I have three, but the pictures are all mixed up and cannot figure out the proper rear to fit the front image, one is a brilliant WW1 contender with a tapered slider and crimp mark, another is a good one and one! Well slider is not so good is all I can say about it!
I will dig them out and post images over the weekend! All the best Billy
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  #7  
Old 28-02-24, 07:34 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Default RAF badge

It looks to me to be blackened brass and die struck, not bronze.

Only an opinion . . !

Rob
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  #8  
Old 28-02-24, 07:37 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default BRONZE

The RFC badge is a "coloured" or darkened brass. The RAF badge is BRONZE the definition being "a yellowish-brown alloy of copper with up to one-third tin." This is not a dirty YELLOW BRASS badge. Where the base metal shows through it is a pinkish brown colour not even remotely close to yellow. It is also NOT a copy. I have seen other "bronze" RAF cap badges for sale with matching bronze (copper) coloured lugs like these. The ones I have seen, for some reason, always appeared in rough shape. Maybe cause they are from the 1919/20 period. I never bothered with them because I do not collect RAF post-1919 and just assumed them to be a variant. You can find them quite easily as they appear on e-bay from time to time. Authentic? never really cared. In pursuing medal groups to all trades in the RFC/pre-1919 RAF, I purchased this SOLID group because he was a motorcyclist in the RFC that saw service in France. The cap badge was an afterthought. However taking his family history and his service into account, it all lines up very well. I am more than familiar with the mixes of metals used in cap badge production. In fact many cap badges were made of copper colour for plating. I specialize in Canadian Airborne and only a very few of the so-called 1st Canadian Parachute Corps "BRASS" badges were actually brass. They were copper with a gold/yellow plating to conserve certain metals. However, this RAF badge has a base colour that is difficult to describe but is pink NOT yellow. It is bronze.
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  #9  
Old 28-02-24, 08:46 PM
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To do some of the bronzing correctly they were copper plated first which will give you the pinkish colour rather than the more golden colour for bronze
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  #10  
Old 28-02-24, 09:49 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default NOPE SORRY

Ah, nope. Therefore, in order to prove my point, as it is obviously important to you guys, I dug a knife into as small a section as I could make and it is " as you put it, golden bronze colour. NOT yellow brass and not even pink although the un-darkened surface IS pink-brownish in shade. Again, if you look at the quality and sharp detail of the badge, its strength and the absolute FACTORY lug job it is a BRONZE RAF CAP BADGE FROM 1919. Let's face it, whether actually bronze or not, that does not prove it is not a variant from 1919. Even it was made to appear as bronze as suggested, it is more than likely something unique to that period. As for sliders, never seen a legit RFC badge with a slider so why would the first examples of RAF badge, if that is what this is, have one? A slider badge on a forage cap? Minns came to Canada at the end of 1919. Where in the hell would he get a badge like this in Canada? The CAF was formed in 1920 and the RCAF in 1924. This came from the family like this and was then sold through a
dealer in Vancouver that I know. No attention was paid to the badge, no extra value or any mention of it at all.
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Last edited by Force136; 28-02-24 at 09:54 PM. Reason: forgot to add pic
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  #11  
Old 28-02-24, 10:59 PM
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Bronze is a yellow or golden colour not brown and part of the brasses family, the colour bronze is a brown chemical coating only to give a brown surface colour, officers OSD badges are bronzed but if you polish them down as some uniforms required look like polished brass or gilding metal
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  #12  
Old 29-02-24, 12:17 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Angry Ya, ok, so?

Lets just summarize by stating this - IT AINT A BRASS BADGE. IT IS NOT YOUR A-TYPICAL POST 1920s BRASS RAF BADGE. THAT WAS THE POINT ALL ALONG. The deep inner core of the metal of the badge IS NOT YELLOW BRASS! Is that really important? NO ITS NOT! The general appearance of the badge, the man who wore it, and the dates surrounding that man and the badge are what is important. So, in the end, I just brought this forward because I thought collectors might want to know this info. If I find a guy making reproduction copper alloy darkened bronze-colored lugged semi-domed RAF cap badges in the backwaters of Vancouver, I will be sure to let y'all know.
This is most of the group I received...Not sure why these are sideways??
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  #13  
Old 29-02-24, 12:26 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Here's a beat up one ???

Looks to have, dare I say it, a dark look to it as well, dug up.
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  #14  
Old 29-02-24, 04:37 AM
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The glaringly obvious point not been raised here, is that the original owner of said badges was a PVT and should/would not be issued with bronze badges. He would have had gilding metal badges, both RFC and RAF.

So in my opinion if these badges are his issued items, they are in all likelyhood very dirty gilding metal badges OR someone has purposefully darkened the badges (possibly with intent.... )
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  #15  
Old 29-02-24, 05:25 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Ya right

I have had estates from OR vets of the Canadian Parachute Battalion where they are in photos wearing silver-guilt officer's badges. I've got
pictures of officers wearing the OR's badges. I have had other RFC groups
to OR's with darkened badges to include two OR air gunners. NOT NCO's.
HE ALSO GOT THIS BADGE AS HE LEFT THE SERVICE. Dont like people casting aspersions about something they know NOTHING about. No one probably gives a shit but last post I am making here.
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