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  #121  
Old 12-08-08, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker View Post
Cardiff,
I have come across a picture in an old antique magazine which shows the KDG star bearing a Victorian crown on a stirrup runner.
Is this the only 'example' of this, or are there others, like say a pouch or belt ornament - more to the point, something with a detachable badge ?
STM.
Hi STM.... Peace at last!!
OK see pic..... All these ornaments/devices are not badges, they are fixed to the items and were not designed to be removed. Almost all KDG and Bays accoutrements, pouches, band pouches, waist belts etc had their own specific ornament. The use of cap/collar badges as ornaments or devices is a recent thing ie QDG ORs pouch belt ornament is a bulk standard NCO's arm badge for example. The waist belt that preceded it had a cap badge mounted in the center of the belt buckle. But I cannot bring to mind any KDG or Bays device being a cap or collar badge doubled up...... Did that answer your Q? I'm not entirely clear what you meant to be honest, it's all this shopping I’ve been doing, it’s addled my brain!
H
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  #122  
Old 13-08-08, 08:04 AM
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H,
You've answered my question perfectly - There is no stand alone star pattern badge with QVC at all.
Upto coming across the magazine photo, I hadn't ever seen the star with anything other than a king's crown, you see.
So I thought there may be a chance of this being a badge aswell.
Thank's, STM.
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  #123  
Old 13-08-08, 09:35 AM
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Hi STM
The 1915 pattern Star & Garter badge was, as you know, a replacement for the Imperial Austrian Eagle, deemed an 'enemy insignia' just after the start of WW1. It was chosen as the badge because it had been a long held 'device' of the KDG and in fact had featured on their buttons for years previously. So that is why many victorian items such as horse furniture etc feature what looks like the S & G badge; but in fact this design of ornament was being used as decorative device well before cap badges were properly intoroduced in the mid to late 1890's. See pic!
H
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  #124  
Old 13-08-08, 03:37 PM
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H,
I understand what you saying.
That's a very nice cross belt ornament.
It must be worth a fair bit, especially when you think what some lesser badges go for these days.
There is one more thing you could help me out with - Are all KC Bays cap badges in white metal copies ?
Thank's, STM.
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  #125  
Old 13-08-08, 07:34 PM
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Default WM Bays Badges

This is an old chestnut and when I write my collectors manual for KDG and Bays items I will include it!
The Bays cap badge was sealed in 1898 in GM and remained sealed in GM throughout all its minor manifestations up to amalgamation with KDG in 1959. Therefore ALL officially issued badges (less a small amount of AA badges issued to recruits) and badges sold in the PRI were in GM.
However during WW2 an order was placed with a local manufacturer in either Libya or Egypt for a consignment of replacement Bays badges. When the badges appeared they were cast in GM but dipped in WM. Due to having more important things to worry about they were accepted into the QM's stores and issued when the need arose until a new batch was delivered. Therefore a VERY small number of genuine WM coated Bays badges exist and a pic of one is attached. As you can see the WM has all but weathered/polished away but the last vestiges can be seen. But this was a mistake rather than the norm.
For some reason a number of WM badges appeared in the 70's and a picture is attached. As you can see, 2 have sliders and 1 x3 lugs. Of the slidered versions, one was produced by Mr. Gaunt and has the infamous 'full stop' the other by an unknown maker; it is from the same die but does not have the same quality as the Gaunt badge. The lugged version is an abomination. It clearly is from the same stable as the Gaunt slidered variant but had at one time x2 lugs. It seems it was altered to fill the perceived gap in the Bays arm badge history and fool people into buying a badge that never existed through clever manipulation of the facts. L&D clearly state in their book however that the missing link was a collar sized WM badge and NOT a cap badge sized item.
So.... why were they produced in the first place? God only knows, a moment of madness by Gaunt and we have the situation we have.... But one thing is for certain. The Queen's Bays never wore a WM badge except for the N African anomaly which is a poorly made and very raggy looking item indeed.
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File Type: jpg 100_2817.jpg (48.4 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 100_4115.jpg (66.6 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 100_4116.jpg (59.8 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg 100_4119.jpg (35.9 KB, 21 views)
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  #126  
Old 14-08-08, 07:39 AM
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I wold point out that the maker of the J.R.Gaunt.London badge are nothing to do with Gaunts at all but are faking the mark. Gaunt did reproduce badges in the 1970s but these have the JR Gaunt B'ham font as per the contempory anodised ones.

Alan
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  #127  
Old 14-08-08, 08:38 AM
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H,
Thank you for your in-depth reply - very interesting.
Of the 3 badges, it's the "Raggy" one I like, the 2 slidered versions, though seldom seen on the market, are like 1000's of other repro rubbish.
The lugged one I would say is an attempt at making a copy of the (Now dismissed) arm badge more realistic, having 3 lugs.
At least now collector's can shun this badge and hopefully someday I'll come across a genuine, dipped raggy example.
I won't hold my breath, though !!!
Thank's again, STM.

Last edited by Saddle tree maker; 14-08-08 at 08:43 AM.
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  #128  
Old 14-08-08, 11:51 PM
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Default The KDG badge

I have a number of these Indian bazaar made badges and the pics are attached.
The first one is an Officers cast badge. The two component parts of the badge; the crowned star and separate garter were both cast in WM and then silver plated. After the plating the garter and crown would have been gilded. It has blade fixings. Initially when i bought this badge one of the blades had broken off and Warren B put it back on. The gilt has all but worn away as has most of the SP. It was made during the Regiment's post WW1 tour of India and Afghanistan and probably used by the Officer's as a SD hat badge replacement for the ridiculously expensive HM silver and enamel badge not particularly suited to the harsh environment.
The second is of a similar construction however the central garter is cast in GM and once again pinned to the main crowned star body. This time however, the badge has lugs and was used both as a cap badge replacement for the issued 1915 pattern slidered badge but more often as the re-introduced NCOs arm badge not worn since 1915.
The third and final example is exactly the same as badge number 1 (all WM and blade fixings) but bronzed and used as a replacement OSD badge.
Remember that when KDG left the trenches in 1917 and returned to India, they had worn the economy all GM badge throughout the war and had only re-adopted the BM version in 1919 ditching the hated GM variant badge. In all probability the only badges they could get their hands on were a scarce supply of issue badges from UK and what they could get locally manufactured by the Pandi's. Plus there was no officially sanctioned arm badge till 1930 and they 'got away' with wearing the BM cap badge as an arm badge for 10 years without being 'pinged' (probably because they were abroad and tacit approval was given in theater to wear it).
So back to the Q....
I believe this to be the NCOs arm badge version. If it were an Officer's item it would not have the GM center and it would in all probability have blade fixings. The metal does not look any different to my arm badge in the pics but i have sent him an email asking him why he thinks it is solid silver? If it is really silver, then my guess is; that it might have been a 'special' order for a silver arm badge given by a particular 'old sweat' Sergeant or WO who remembered the days as a LCPL when he would have worn the HM silver Eagle as an arm badge..... who knows? I await confirmation....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 100_3387.jpg (38.3 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg 100_3388.jpg (22.6 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Cast AB.jpg (54.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Cast AB Rev.jpg (42.9 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg KDG OSDIndia.jpg (31.7 KB, 22 views)
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  #129  
Old 16-09-08, 10:56 PM
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Default Brass Badge

This more angular shaped eagle is found on a number of KDG badge manifestations and i would be lying if i said i know exactly what is what with them. However i am beginning to form an opinion!
Pic 1: This type of eagle first appeared during WW2 and was almost certainly produced and manufactured as an 'in theater' replacement badge in Egypt. It was produced in variations of brass alloy, mostly of poor quality. Contrary to the KDG habit of only wearing WM eagle badges, some of the soldiers wore the cheap brass badge as a matter of expediency (as confirmed to me personally by Bishop Michael Mann ex KDG Officer throughout WW2 and KDG historian). You will note from the picture that the quality of the strike is awful and indicative of the low quality of badges produced in operational theaters.
Pic 2: As the war progressed a later version of it was made in Italy. This time produced in WM; though a slightly better quality, it still has the feel of a locally made example and is similar in shape to the first badge.
Both of the above badges have brass sliders.
Now the contentious bit.....
Pic 3: This is a very similar eagle badge but this time its chromed brass and the quality of the strike is very much better. The slider is white metal and quite wide and pristine.
Pic 4: Exactly the same badge as in Pic 3 but the brass has not been chromed and it has a brass slider of exact same dimensions as the WM slider on Pic 3 badge.
I think these 2 badges are copies of the badges in pics 1 and 2. They are VERY well made indeed and may have been produced for private sale in the PRI or some other outlet. But i am fairly certain they were not worn at RD. Post WW2 badges worn by KDG were almost always lugged and from the other type of Eagle shape.
As for the badge you ask about.... and therefore to answer your Q. I think its a pic 4 badge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KDG GM Egypt.jpg (37.2 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg KDG WM Italy.jpg (45.5 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Chromed.jpg (52.3 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Brass Angular.jpg (61.4 KB, 19 views)
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  #130  
Old 19-12-08, 06:58 PM
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Default KDG JNCOs Pre 1914 WM Arm Badge

When the KDG, who were stationed in India in 1914, heard of the outbreak of WW1; it didn't take long for them to feel VERY uncomfortable about wearing the Austrian (double headed) eagle as a badge. As a result, the War Office eventually agreed to replace it (at the Regiment's request) with the 1915-1938 pattern star and garter badge. A consequence of this decision was that the Sgt's silver (hallmarked) arm badge (L&D 5.3 HMS) was withdrawn by the War Office and the Corporals were told to remove their WM variant (L&D 5.3 WM). It is very probable that the intensely patriotic Victorian/Edwardian JNCOs were only too glad to remove it and in most cases would have thrown them in the bin or at best at the back of a drawer.
Dec 1914 they arrived in France sans arm badges but still wearing the eagle cap badge as the star and garter variant was yet to be sealed. There they stayed and fought until 1917 when they returned to India. From India to Iraq and Afghanistan (de ja vue?) and finally home to the UK in 1921.
One wonders how many bothered to keep the WM arm badge as a keepsake or in some forlorn hope that it might be worn again and brought it back to the UK.
Because of these reasons, this badge is in all probability one of THE rarest badges around as most of them lie at the bottom of Edwardian Indian landfill sites. I know of only 2 in existence. I attach a pic of it front and rear and would very much appreciate feedback as to the location of any other examples....
Over to you!
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File Type: jpg WM AB F.jpg (92.6 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg WM AB R.jpg (59.1 KB, 29 views)

Last edited by Cardiffbloke; 27-12-08 at 02:12 PM.
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  #131  
Old 23-03-09, 07:09 PM
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Hi, any idea as to what this is? It's the same size as a cap badge.
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File Type: jpg kdg for howard rtr 003.jpg (35.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg kdg for howard rtr 004.jpg (30.0 KB, 34 views)
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  #132  
Old 24-03-09, 02:17 PM
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Default The QDG Badge

Hi Mick
Ok got the info sorted in my head so hear goes.....

When the KDG and Bays amalgamated in 1959 the first 'official' QDG badge issued was an AA badge with slider in the same configuration as the one you show (ie with fully un-voided space below the central crown). This badge was made by Gaunt and the slider was marked GAUNT LONDON (no full stops and large font).
KDG had for many years eschewed the AA badge issued in the early 50's as it was deemed 'cheap and nasty' and certainly had no intention of wearing it after amalgamation after fighting tooth and nail to keep the Eagle. They had worn a WM variant bought in the PRI with lugs fixings since reintroducing the eagle just prior to WW2 (1938).
As you can imagine, after amalgamation half the KDG personnel thinned out fairly rapidly and in the time honoured fashion some of them would have passed on their badges to the new boys plus the KDG now QDG PRI would have had residual stock so in effect there were enough of the WM variant around thereby negating the use of the new AA official issue badge.
Gaunt then saw an opening in the market and produced their own WM (with lugs) copy of the AA badge for sale to the PRI; and that is the badge you have.
This badge however was unpopular because of the un-voided space under the crown (deemed un-aesthetic) and very soon was replaced for purchase by a fully voided badge.

Hope that is of help Butty....
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  #133  
Old 26-03-09, 12:20 AM
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Default KDG Pre 1937

Hello Chaps , What a great thread! Attached are photo's of a KDG badge from my collection. Have wondered about this one , looks a little too clean. Came from Marlow's and at least meets the 46mm and braze hole criteria. Hopefully it will pass muster.
Cheers.
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File Type: jpg _MG_9048.jpg (93.3 KB, 35 views)
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  #134  
Old 26-03-09, 05:28 PM
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That is a perfectly good badge. Just because a badge is new looking doesnt mean that it is bad. Any badge that was never issued or polished and kept in the right storage conditions will still look like this for very long time indeed.

CB
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  #135  
Old 26-03-09, 05:34 PM
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Default KDG

Thanks CB, appreciate you taking the time to respond. Your point about storage is well taken.
Cheers.
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