Availability for sale of current issue British Army badges

[grey_green_acorn]

A recent post was about a Scots Guards musician's cap badge which sold for £87. This was a current issue item in its sealed bag of issue. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hlight=Missing

Can any member describe how the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence (UK MOD) surplus stores disposal process currently works?

Over the last five or more years I have purchased, for my own collection and for resale, numerous items from dealers both on-line and at militaria fairs. It seems clear to me that current issue badges and clothing are becoming more widely available for sale in fairly large quantities.

Much of this material is in its sealed MOD Standard Packaging showing description, NSN, size and date etc. I fully understand that when obsolete badges and clothing (for example Desert DPM clothing) are no longer current they should be disposed of by the UK MOD. However, I do not see why current issue badges and MTP PCS CU clothing are so widely available on the market having apparently never seen the Quartermasters' stores!

I do sell mostly modern badges on eBay and recently received a request from a serving Adjutant General's Corps Educational and Training Services (AGC ETS) officer for a pair of collar badges for his No1 Dress 'Blues' as he was unable to obtain a pair 'through the system'. Likewise a request from a serving Army Air Corps (AAC) soldier seeking anodised buttons. These requests seem to indicate some shortages in the official supply chain yet I was able to provide the AGC ETS officer with collar badges in their sealed bag of issue and the AAC buttons.

I once heard a couple of veterans at the War and Peace show saying "No wonder these wars cost us so much, look at all this stuff left over!"

Tim

[altcar73]

Probably along the same "tack", I've always been shocked to see so much alleged "surplus" items of uniform for sale. The kit has obviously be disposed of by the MoD. But, in many cases the items (caps and tunics etc) are current patterns which are still worn. All I can say is that if the MoD were a commercial organisation it would go out of business in short order. The amount of waste is nothing short of criminal. All paid for by you and I.

Also, looking at the amount of "nice to have" uniform items (mostly ceremonial including insignia) that various regiments have suggests to me that very little effort is being made by the MoD to slim down expenditure. They ask for it and they get it. Other public services have stopped or severely cut back on issuing non-operational (nice to have) kit. Not the Army!. The other two services seem to have slightly less exotic tastes when it come to fancy uniforms and badges.

Dave.

[grey_green_acorn]

Dave,
Thank you for your reply. Indeed there seems to be a wide variety of new material that MOD UK has 'disposed' of to the market.

Tim

100+ views - any more comments?

[Rob Miller]

I tend to keep away from current issue, I assumed a large proportion of it was "nicked".

Rob

[Phil2M]

I always assumed it was made in India or China under contract, then sold to the public/dealers on the side, by the contractor.

[Hoot]

Bloody Bicester car boot sales!!!.

[hagwalther]

Hi Tim,

There are two sorts of Firmin packeted badges. These are:

1. Packet with full and correct NSN and pattern No.

2. Those where NSN is shortened and is the same as the pattern No.

The former is from MoD souces while the later are commissioned by dealers and supplied directly to the dealers without going through the MoD supply line.

From the image you have posted it is difficult to tell the provenance of this badge as the NSN cannot be easily read.

Therefore, it may well be common to find badges of units which have been amalgamated, disbanded etc. in full NSN and pattern No. packets - these coming from disposal sales.

However, it should be harder to find current badges in packets with the same NSN and pattern No. as they are current issue but obviously they do come up now and again.

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

Here is my example of the badge in question.

Note that the NSN and pattern No. are the same - 781911.

I believe that this particular badge and the Scots Guards musician's cap badge directly from the MoD supply line with full and correct NSN and pattern No. on their packaging are exactly the same.

However, (for example) what if Firmin never made any cap badges for the Scots Guards with them all being made by e.g. TKS. Would this badge be a dealer knock-off repro?

Something to ponder over...

Regards,

Chris

[Phil2M]

So, Chris, would you consider the badges with the shorter NSN to be akin to the Gaunt.London 15mm badges?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

So, Chris, would you consider the badges with the shorter NSN to be akin to the Gaunt.London 15mm badges?

Hi Phil,

See reply above - also, dunno what a Gaunt.London 15mm badge is.

Regards,

Chris

[Phil2M]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Phil,

See reply above - also, dunno what a Gaunt.London 15mm badge is.

Regards,

Chris

Apologies, Chris, I didn't see your second post.

The Gaunt restrikes of the 1970s have a 15mm maker mark. J.R.GAUNT.LONDON

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

Apologies, Chris, I didn't see your second post.

The Gaunt restrikes of the 1970s have a 15mm maker mark. J.R.GAUNT.LONDON

Thanks Phil,

On A/A this mark was OK.

Regards,

Chris

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Tim,

There are two sorts of Firmin packeted badges. These are:

1. Packet with full and correct NSN and pattern No.

2. Those where NSN is shortened and is the same as the pattern No.

The former is from MoD souces while the later are commissioned by dealers and supplied directly to the dealers without going through the MoD supply line.

From the image you have posted it is difficult to tell the provenance of this badge as the NSN cannot be easily read.

Therefore, it may well be common to find badges of units which have been amalgamated, disbanded etc. in full NSN and pattern No. packets - these coming from disposal sales.

However, it should be harder to find current badges in packets with the same NSN and pattern No. as they are current issue but obviously they do come up now and again.

Regards,

Chris

Chris,
Thank you, the information about the shorter NSN/Pattern No is very interesting and of course could also provide PRI shops with their 'official/unofficial' badges.
However, I have seen and purchased on line and at Militaria Fairs hundreds of full NSN packaged current badges with various maker marks but have only one FIRMIN (R IRISH) with the short NSN.
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=127698

Tim

[grey_green_acorn]

As an example of what I am questioning is the wide availability (at fairly high prices) of the recently issued Royal Lancers badges.

Tim

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

As an example of what I am questioning is the wide availability (at fairly high prices) of the recently issued Royal Lancers badges.

Tim

Hi Tim,

All can be said for certain is that these are the same as issued to serving soldiers. I have no evidence that the full NSN/different pattern No. badges of current units were sold directly by Firmin to dealers.

I am though, quite sure that units no longer in existence had their stock of badges with full NSN/different pattern No. passed to dealers and I have quite a few of them.

Taking it all one step further - why did Firmin decided to make their badges in short NSN/same pattern No. packets? They must have been a genuine reason or they would not have done it. Also, I do not believe that these short NSN/same pattern No. packets have ever been issued to serving soldiers from MoD stores. Can anyone confirm?

So basically, we have two types of marked packet - why?


Regards,

Chris