R. Scots Fusiliers collar badge question

[cbuehler]

All,
Please clear some confusion with regards to the RSF OR's collar badges.
There appear to be two patterns of thistles used on the grenades. Is one earlier than the other or just a variation? Also, photos of pre ww1 full dress doublets seem to show the small plain grenade that also was used on shoulder titles being worn.
Thanks,

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

All,
Please clear some confusion with regards to the RSF OR's collar badges.
There appear to be two patterns of thistles used on the grenades. Is one earlier than the other or just a variation? Also, photos of pre ww1 full dress doublets seem to show the small plain grenade that also was used on shoulder titles being worn.
Thanks,

CB

I cannot help with the collars and you will need a RSF specialist I imagine to tease out the detail.

The plain 'universal grenade' was used as a collar badge and/or part shoulder title by all fusilier regiments, the Grenadier Guards, HAC, RA and RMA (and possibly even the RE) from around the turn of the century, but most of them adopted unique regimental variations over the succeeding decades with the exception of a few ultra conservative regiments like the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, which retained the universal grenade as both OR's collar and part shoulder title right up until 2006 and its merger! The Royal Scots Fusiliers retained it for shoulder title only and the Lancashire Fusiliers for collars only. Other regiments also varied in their usage.

[cbuehler]

Thanks Toby,
I am beginning to suspect the bimetal collars were more likely post ww1 and the plain universal grenade was worn earlier.

CB

[enfant perdus]

Churchill goes into some detail on this, but in short, the RSF wore the universal pattern grenade as a collar ca.1872-1878. After that came the familiar grenade with the thistle spray in white metal, although it appears that all brass badges (with the thistle stamped) may have been worn prior to 1881.

Officially, the bimetal pattern was unchanged from 1882 to 1951 but of course there are the expected minor variations.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by enfant perdus

Churchill goes into some detail on this, but in short, the RSF wore the universal pattern grenade as a collar ca.1872-1878. After that came the familiar grenade with the thistle spray in white metal, although it appears that all brass badges (with the thistle stamped) may have been worn prior to 1881.

Officially, the bimetal pattern was unchanged from 1882 to 1951 but of course there are the expected minor variations.

This is greatly of interest as I am not sure what year the universal grenade was first pattern sealed?

[cbuehler]

Ah, so the thistle grenades do indeed predate ww1.

CB

[enfant perdus]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

This is greatly of interest as I am not sure what year the universal grenade was first pattern sealed?

Pattern No.9281, authorised 16 July 1872, sealed 2 October 1872.

Also perhaps of interest, the bimetal pattern replaced the universal grenade on the shoulder straps at some point during the Great War (Churchill is no more specific than that). Westlake describes this as pertaining to NCOs, but photos do occasionally show ORs wearing them.