A FEW QUESTIONS RE ALL WWI GM BADGES (‘ECONOMY’ ‘ALL BRASS’) BADGES

[CAM]

I am looking for help on the question of all GM WWI badges (aka ‘economy’ ‘all brass’) badges.*

I have read the great article on Badges of the First World War Part One - The Regular Forces in the Military Historical Society Journal, 2015, regarding the gilding metal (so called ‘economy’) badges of 1916.

The article details the regular infantry badges. It then details the cavalry badges, specifically, five cavalry badges made in gilding metal viz 1DG, 6D, 7H, 10H and 16L. It goes on to say that there were eight other regiments that had a braised overlay that weren't included in the 1916 order - listed as 3DG, 4DG, 6DG, 4H, 8H, 5L, 12L and 21L.

Does this mean they went on to be made latterly in gilding metal, or they weren't manufactured in GM at all? Posts on the Forum state that he 5DG had a GM badge and also that the 21L did not.

My questions are related to the regiments that previously had BiM or WM bates:

1. Is there a definitive list that details the cavalry regiments that had badges made in 1916 or later of GM?

2. Is there a definitive list that details the Infantry regiments that had badges made in 1916 or later of GM e.g. 23rd Londons?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Chris

[Luke H]

The ‘‘further eight badges made with ‘brazed overlays’, 3DG, 4DG, 6DG, 4H, 8H, 5L, 12L and 21L’’ were exactly that i.e BM badges. Hence none were officially authorised in 1916 for production in all GM aka ‘economy issue’.

However, I have seen an all GM 5L which I regard as genuine, but no others from the above list. Similarly the all GM 5DG you mention. What these are is open to debate but they are not officially authorised 1916 all GM issues.

1. Yes see Julian’s article for 1916 all GM issues. As for the GM anomalies, no. No definitive list exists since they’re an unknown quantity as such.

2. Yes, again Julian has this information from the B&P tenders. Regular infantry are covered in his article. Territorials will be in part 2. See this thread on 1916 TF infantry also the 23rd London GM badge was sealed in 1915 see here.

As for the more anomalous all GM strikes, no definitive list exists. Some are total mysteries like the KSLI whereas others have been attributed e.g. the TF Notts & Derby

[CAM]

Thanks Luke

[Alan O]

I also have an all brass 13 Hussars. Why this was made is again unknown. The design changed in 1922 so it is either a wartime economy or possibly pre war for wear in a particular hat - FSH possibly but that is conjecture on my part.

These are my 5 all brass badges. The 10th Hussars is 2 piece and whilst this is odd I have been told that it is correct. Another French forum member has one with WW1 provenance.

I believe that the reason that not all cavalry badges were made in GM was down to the small numbers that the cavalry needed. Unlike infantry or Yeomanry regts with multiple war raised battalions the cavalry did not recruit in large numbers so there was not the demand for large orders of badges.

[Luke H]

Sadly Alan I do not believe that 13th Hussars is original.

[Alan O]

Another area for consideration is the fact that the 1917-19 Volunteer Battalions (successors to the VTC) were authorised to wear the cap badges of the Regular Battalions that they were part of. Where battlehonours were part of the badge then they were supposed to wear the blank scroll version. Rather oddly the VB Hampshire were allegedly wearing an all white metal badge. Why such a thing was made confuses me and I would very much like to know where this attribution came from.

Now in reality at the end of the war some were still wearing their old VTC badges whilst many were wearing the Royal Coat of Arms badges that the VB were initially told to wear.

It's possible that some were issued the old TF badges: including any all brass versions but this is not proven. Some of the former TF badges would not be suitable if they had the TF's South Africa battlehonours. As VTCs are not well researched or recorded I can't confirm what they wore for certain.

[Luke H]

Ultimately as the question is broad and in part contradictory as it includes WM badges which we know the relevant ACI never applied to, this all becomes a bit speculative and realms of the ‘Gaylor’s List’.

My tuppence worth, cavalry-wise I’ve seen the following (non-1916 authorised) in all GM which I regard as genuine - 5L, 5DG. There’s also a 9L I believe is from a genuine die.

Infantry-wise - Royal Warwickshire, Notts & Derby, KSLI.

The Notts & Derby aside, the reason for existence and use of the above is yet unaccounted for.

I had considered but intentionally not included…
1) BB badges which have had their finish removed/lost e.g. 5th The King’s
2) Anomalies of brass/GM struck badges then nickel or chrome plated e.g. Border Regt & cohort of Scottish badges.
3) Commonwealth e.g. Canadian Black Watch.

[Phil2M]

The R warwicks looks fake to me. The Notts and Derby badges were explained somewhere on the forum, I believe it was Nozzer who tracked them down to a specific unit.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

The R warwicks looks fake to me. The Notts and Derby badges were explained somewhere on the forum, I believe it was Nozzer who tracked them down to a specific unit.

The Warks is not from any known fake or restruck die.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...68&postcount=4

https://www.regimentalbadges.com/en-...6#.Y7AqUOSnwlQ

The thread I’ve linked in post #2 is the one where that badge is attributed to 1/8th Notts & Derby.

[Sonofacqms]

I have two 21st Lancer cap badges, one bi-metal and one all G/M, neither have blowholes, both have sliders and the amount of white metal on the bi-metal badge was at a minimum as it is only the bottom half of the pennons.

Could it be that when the all G/M was made the manufacturers decided not to bother with the bottom half of the pennons and issued the badge as an economy?

Other Great War era badges were issued and worn with many imperfections and I am convinced this is what may have been the case with this badge.

Rob

[Luke H]

You GM badge is not genuine Rob.

21L has been discussed at length in several threads, recently this one.

Andy’s badge is from the same die as this monstrous thing https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165858892...mis&media=COPY

[Sonofacqms]

Luke, could you give me a reason as to why you have come to this conclusion.

Currently I cannot access anything connected with ebay.

Rob

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Luke, could you give me a reason as to why you have come to this conclusion.

Rob

3748Hussar has taken his identical badge down in the thread I linked above, also see this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...cavalry&page=4 esp. post #55.

The wedge of a slider on it should be your first clue.

[Phil2M]

The R Warwicks looks better in the rear photo

I missed that link, sorry.

[Sonofacqms]

Whilst I am not saying my 21st Lancer badge is original, there is often as they say a slip between cup and lip, manufacturers have been known to cut corners.

I am sure there was no quality control during the Great War and when you look at some of the badges worn, anything went . . !

I respect the research that goes into threads which are based on paperwork, but paperwork was never fully checked, who watched the watcher!

Rob