Hyderabad Regiment of Amazons

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Helmet Insignia id requested
http://www.pictorialgems.com/1857-Am...n-Revolt.61199

[Hussar100]

If such a thing exists mate.

[peter monahan]

A quick romp through a few sources including some 'sacred texts' suggests that Richard Burton , the explorer, first described these 'Amazons' for European audiences. All the texts but one seem to rely on Burton as a source, but one essay [found here http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/csas...z%20Naeem.pdf] identifies the 'zenana platoon' as a troupe of dancing girls, dressed as soldiers. Not quite the same thing but sure to appeal to Victorian beliefs about savage customs and strange mores!

[4966Ian]

A quick look on the internet and I found the following. Might be relevant or a complete red herring.

http://www.ancestrybooksmn.com/book/9780720614831

Empire of the Sikhs: The Life and Times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh

A bit in the blurb on the book states :

"..... In person he was a colorful character whose his court was renowned for its splendor; he had 20 wives, kept a regiment of "Amazons," and possessed a stable of thousands of horses."

[GTB]

Personally, I think the title is a misnomer.
Amazons is a term applied to warrior women (although Napoleon purportedly referred to the Highlanders at Waterloo as Amazons because they wore kilts!). It would be perfectly in order to refer to a unit of female warriors/masculine women as amazons.
However, IMO the error is compounded by spelling the word with a capital 'A' rather than 'a'.

GT

[4966Ian]

Having a bit of a further search on Google and the following has come up.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-NOST...p2047675.l2557

This listing was for "RARE NOSTALGIA LEAD TOY 14 SOLDIER 54MM BAND NIZAM HYDERABAD AMAZON MUSICIAN".

Another listing of similar:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-LEAD-.../121506238971?


The pictures of the uniforms and headdress do look quite similar to the picture listed in the original post.


The following book also mentions them :

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ldiers&f=false

".....She also mentions some female warriors in South Central India, personal guards of prince Hyderabad."


Cheers

Ian

[peter monahan]

The essay I mentined yesterday is a scholarly examination of diaries kept - in the 1830s or 40s I think - by someone who visited Ranjit Singh's court. He very clearly says that the 'Amazons' - not his term - were dancers and musicians. It's Burton who suggests that they were 'harem guards or bodyguards. Others have taken that notion - a typical Victorian fantasy, IMHO - and embroidered ti to the point where one author suggests that these 'Amazons' supported female members of the court in dynastic coups. However, as I suggested, all the success I came across seem to depend on Burton's questionable identification, including the idea that ' a number' of Asian monarchs had such units/groups.

[peter monahan]

None of the sources mentioned here cite their sources - usually a sign that they are using secondary sources, in my experience as a teacher and scholar, and while Patwant Singh is apparently a well known historian and political commentator, he was not an academic historian but rather a popular writer. As to the lead figures, one would expect that they looked like the illustration in the Illustrated Times, as it was very likely the inspiration for the figures in the first place.

I also think it significant that the illustration is by Prince Soltykoff, a Russian traveller to India [1841], whose pictures were published in England in 1859. It's not clear when the picture was done but some of the women - those to the left and right of the group in particular - look very European and the uniforms they wear are very close copies of British uniforms which seems unlikely to have been what the artist actually observed, to me. Perhaps this picture was the 1859 equivalent of a 'stock photo', with all the issues that implies.

I remain skeptical!

[Hussar100]

I'm inclined to agree with the rest of you. My own forays into Google suggested that the Maharajah kept 100 women as "guards" for his harem. It suggests to me the picture is a romanticised fake. Yes I agree the Maharajah may have had a female harem guard but Amazons - no. I doubt very much they had any uniform. I also doubt they would have had any social standing in court other than the various intrigues we always hear about. Women's lives were cheap in India at that time.

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

None of the sources mentioned here cite their sources - usually a sign that they are using secondary sources, in my experience as a teacher and scholar, and while Patwant Singh is apparently a well known historian and political commentator, he was not an academic historian but rather a popular writer. As to the lead figures, one would expect that they looked like the illustration in the Illustrated Times, as it was very likely the inspiration for the figures in the first place.

I also think it significant that the illustration is by Prince Soltykoff, a Russian traveller to India [1841], whose pictures were published in England in 1859. It's not clear when the picture was done but some of the women - those to the left and right of the group in particular - look very European and the uniforms they wear are very close copies of British uniforms which seems unlikely to have been what the artist actually observed, to me. Perhaps this picture was the 1859 equivalent of a 'stock photo', with all the issues that implies.

I remain skeptical!

Soltykoff (Alexis):
Visited India 1841-1843 & 1844-1846. Drawings on the
subject published 1859, London.

Uniform Description
I have an 11/28/1857 Illustrated Times page(s) original print.
Page 2 has Soltykoff's description of a uniform. Can send scans if
anyone interested - the link shows a blurred print.
http://www.pictorialgems.com/1857-Am...n-Revolt.61199

Harems - fairly routine. The Russian Prince may possibly have done
an ok sketch, description uninfluenced by Burton ?

As regards racial origins of some of the 'amazons' a rich state could
have 'obtained' such soldiers anywhere - from Persia, Turkey or Hollywood
-after all Hyderabad was rich - they mined the Kohinoor Diamond.
They even had a set of Abyssinian Guards. John Keay's book on the HEIC
has some interesting stuff. As regards uniforms much was copied from
the British / French. One Raja had his tps as like British Cavalry and
French Infantry. - hired mercenaries to train them as such. Drill commands
in French.

Princes
There were about 365 Princes in India to 1947 with tiny to large territories;
varied affiliations, inclinations. For instance the Maharaja of Sailana has a
excellent collection of Cactus in his Palace gardens, also wrote a book
" The Cooking Delights of the Maharajas" Both interested me.
Another collected medals, (VCs and all) Badges - the collection still there
in Patiala (see by appointment) A recent book on Princely States'
Armies, Medals, Badges by McLenaghan.
Different - Some were tilted Maharajas, Maharanas, Rajas, Ranas,
others Nawabs (Muslim) or as - the 'Nizam' of Hyderabad.

[peter monahan]

I agree that 'Circassians' and other non-Asians were in high demand in eastern harems and I'm certainly familiar with the various princely states tendency to ape European uniforms and milkitary practice - recently saw a lovely french hussar style tunic attributed to the army of one of the Sikh ruled states. And of course the association between the Sikhs and the french is well known.

All that said, I remain skeptical that, given the previously mentioned [non] status of women on the sub-continent that a ruler would use female guards to guard his females. A bit like using chicken to guard the chicken coop! I have already noted the lack of primary evidence for these theory. OTOH, 'Amazons' had far more romantic appeal and would garner far more media attention than [another] dance troupe.

And there I respectfully rest my case, sirs.

[pinfrin]

More Amazons

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Originally Posted by peter monahan

All that said, I remain skeptical that, given the previously mentioned [non] status of women on the sub-continent that a ruler would use female guards to guard his females. A bit like using chicken to guard the chicken coop! I have already noted the lack of primary evidence for these theory. OTOH, 'Amazons' had far more romantic appeal and would garner far more media attention than [another] dance troupe.

And there I respectfully rest my case, sirs.

The recent post by piffer (HHA MVC) trickled to the book by R.H & TM ( book cover attd )
One page* ( also attd ) notes that the Amazons were even used in the War against the
Mahrattas in 1795 apart from as Harem Guards.

The Hyd Rulers had a mixed bunch ot tps ( to prevent mil intrigues ? )
comprising African, Arab, Local contingents and perhaps Turkish soldiers
( one Hyd Nizam had a Turkish Queen )

* the cap badge pic at the center 30.66.1 is not too good. Perhaps it was worn by them ?

Attd also Illustrated Times report of 28 Nov 1857. If anyone requires a clearer copy please PM

[peter monahan]

Two points:

1) the badge[s] being discussed in the original post about images 1 & 2 were World War 1 or 2, and nothing to do with 'Amazons' of 19th century imagination.

2) You have again provided a secondary source, and a suspect one at that. The Illustrated Times was a popular paper intended for the wider audience, perhaps similar to the better tabloids of today, and not a paper such as the Times of London which rep[roted only verifiable news stories. Sorry, unconvincing!

[pinfrin]

Zafar Paltan 30.66 pg 351 RH & TM research.