Leicestershire PAO Yeomanry O/R 1916 (K&K 1423)

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

I am picking up three LYPAO 1916 badges from the LY Museum this morning so I can show you what the "Pukka" item looks like at close range. The original badge is a crude badge compared to what appears to be a better defined copy? The badges I am about to show you came directly from a WW1 Soldiers donation to the museum some years ago.

The O/Rs 1916 badge was worn only by the soldiers, officers wore either the K&K 1424 or the earlier Collar badge K&K 1318 (Pre 1913 Officers for K&K 1318) in their caps ( I have photo's of both) in WW1.

I will also put pictures of copies up so you can see the difference.

[GriffMJ]

Note the lug positions on both badges and also the different type of lugs.


Note that the tower on "Bert's Crest" is very straight.... compared to the slightly curved tower on the Copy.

[GriffMJ]

The edges of the original badge are thick and measure approx 1mm or larger and have the appearance of a "coin edge". The copy will bend easily compared to a very rigid genuine badge.


There is another "Genuine" type (not listed in K&K its seems?):-

The above badge (what I know as Pattern 1) is possibly the the first issue, the lower PAO scroll is more upright (W Shaped at distance) to that of the more common later issue post 1915 badge. Sgt Thirlby Hack, seen in the inset photo post War (c1920-21 probably later), would have been one of the first men to receive the new badge having been a Frezenberg survivor. I have a picture of Corporal Thirlby Hack in hospital in England in 1915 (Post Battle of Frezenberg Ridge) and he is still wearing his LY Wreath badge in his cap.

"But" is the badge pictured another copy? It was sold on eBay recentley..... the lugs are dark and not in the correct positions and the badge is well defined like the copy shown next to the illustrated genuine badge.

[Alan O]

Am I right in thinking that these are collar badges but worn in the cap in prefernce to the large LY one?

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alan

This badge "replaced" the LY wreath badge in 1916, regimental folklore says that it was in recognition for "Frezenberg". The badge was a lugged cap badge and used as a collar badge also (although I have not seen a photo of it on a collar)......... it was worn "only" by the O/Rs.

**Post WW1 I have only got photos of K&K 1424 on the collar & cap badge for O/R's.

This is the only picture I have from WW1 with anything on collars, an LY Trooper (c1914 taken in Aldershot) with what might be 17mm LYPAO Garter Buttons on his collars... smart lad! Cut above the Yeo Cav'
Uniform and Coat buttons will be the Genereal Service Pattern. (Royal Coat of Arms & Supporters)


This is an LY Trooper c1917 with the K&K 1423 (What I know as Pattern 2) in his Trench Cap, his collars dont appear to have anything in them (Another Smart lad!)
Uniform and Coat buttons will be the Genereal Service Pattern. (Royal Coat of Arms & Supporters)


In this picture, confirmed 1923-24, you can see no collar badges and the O/Rs are wearing either Pattern 1 K&K 1423 (W shaped at distance) or pattern 2 K&K 1423 ....... the officer is wearing K&K 1424 in Cap & Collar. Obviously the odd one out is the 7th Dragoon (SSM Jones..... who is buried in Melton Mowbray near the old remount centre).

[Alan O]

Griff,

It would be very very unusual for a cap badge to be introduced in 1915 to be lugged as sliders were the norm. There were exceptions (Scottish and later beret badges such as the RTR) whereas collars were always lugged.

This is why I wonder if the regt decided to wear collars (as did the Glasgow Yeomanry) rather than the WD issued badges? Could it have been privately bought by the regt?

I would love to find the sealed pattern card for this one.

Alan

[Tinto]

Hi Griff,
Great photos, thanks for posting them.
Cheers, Tinto

[Noodles]

Hi,

Did the War Department issue cast badges during this time ?

Noodles.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Griff,

It would be very very unusual for a cap badge to be introduced in 1915 to be lugged as sliders were the norm. There were exceptions (Scottish and later beret badges such as the RTR) whereas collars were always lugged.

This is why I wonder if the regt decided to wear collars (as did the Glasgow Yeomanry) rather than the WD issued badges? Could it have been privately bought by the regt?

I would love to find the sealed pattern card for this one.

Alan

Hi Alan

Its a hard cap badge to nail down ...... at a guess I would say that it was regimetal expenditure as the badge is very crude compared to K&K 1424. I have never seen this badge (k&K 1423) with a slider.... and if anybody has this badge "with" a slider in their collectrion.... I would love to see it. All the examples I have seen have always been lugged.

Also..... the LY Wreath Cap Badge...... had collars that were the same as the LY Wreath Cap. Collars are only seen on the Blues dress.... not on Khaki battle dress. The only time collars are seen on Battle dress is around 1928 and this would have been the K&K 1424 in cap and collar. Col Sir Geoffrey Codrington was the CO in 1928 and upgraded the dress regs for the Yeomanry...... Officers and men all wore the same cap badge, collars and buttons for the first time since 1870 in LY yeomanry history, the NCO arm badge was introduced in the same year.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Noodles

Hi,

Did the War Department issue cast badges during this time ?

Noodles.

Hi Noodles

Looking at it again, I am not sure....... I am sure "the badge boffs" will confirm its construction type The weight of the badge at 6 grams compared to the 3 gram Copy certainly suggests more brass was used and the thickness of the badge is comparable to a 1 penny piece. Its construction is almost the same as the officers IY Collars K&K 1318 if you look at the back of the badges (and the edges), both badges have imperfections in the front face of the badge.

[Alan O]

The thick cast bagde is very unlikely to be an issue item as the vast majority of issued British badges (ie made in Britain for the WD and not in India or Egypt for local supply) were die struck (as the 3grams one is). In fact without the provenance of the thicker badge I would have said that it was a copy! I would be wary of writing off the second one too early because it might have been a later version from a proper badge maker. It is also a design that is very hard to find so if it has been faked then it is not in production now and was not made in any large numbers.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alun

I agree with everything you have said...... especially your comment about "provenance". "But" I have a feeling this was a quickly made badge initially and then, as you have said, could have been produced "after" the war by a proper manufacturer.

The comparrison of the K&K 1318 & 1423 is a good one though........ identicle method of making the badge by the looks of things and also blemishes on the face of the badge....... could be a Leicestershire Gunsmith that made them...... the LY Armourer that made the swords etc was still around in the centre of Leicester at the time.

[Alan O]

Griff,

Julian will know the exact month but it was only in 1915 that the WD took over the issue of badges to the Territorials. It is quite conceivable that the rget decided to change its badge before this date or before officially issued ones came along (if they ever did as the WD did not agree to fund every design in existance).

Do you know why they took umbridge witht he old design? The large LIY and later LY badge was a much more attractive design imo. It is odd why they lost the SAfrica honour and then reintroduced it on the later badge in the 1920s.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alan

I agree that the LY Wreath badge is more attractive..... but it could be that it was an expensive badge (but there were larger badges in other Yeomany Regiments)? The LYPAO were taken on at full "regular" strength during 1915 and had two other Regiments at home (2nd/1st & 3rd/1st LY)..... who all had to be kitted out.

So..... the smaller badge could have been more cost effective. As I have said in a previous post.... regimental folklore says that the change in cap badge happened to honour the fallen at "Frezenberg Ridge"...... but without the written regimental proof then all it is is folklore. Ofcourse it may also be that other regiments would be confused by the different cap badges between officers and men and therefore it was changed becuase of that? This is also why the Royal Yeomanry changed its cap badge recently as Brit Regulars and the Yanks got very confused with Squadron Cap badges used out in Iraq...... they didnt know that the LDYPAO and the Westminster Dragoons were the same Regiment (even though the rank slides said Royal Yeomanry).

[GriffMJ]

Re Badge Makers for the Regiment:-

"Henry Clarke's shop at 37 1/2 Gallowtree Gate, Leicester, in about 1883; probably run by one of his sons. At this time the firm were armourers to Prince Albert's Own Leicester Yeomanry Cavalry."

Also, "Burton's Jewellers" in Leicester had a son serving in the Regiment at the time (Sgt. Burton, B Sqn LY), he died at Frezenberg 13th May 1915...... so it could be the firm that made the badges?

Either, could be the place where badges were made when the Regiment purchased their own badges, K&K 1318 & K&K 1423..... just an educated guess though. My only real doubt about this is that "If" the badges were made by the same maker....... then surely he would have spotted the "feathers mistake"...... or would it have mattered.... I dont know?

"Coin like edges":-



Badge "Blemishes" :-

Officers Collar Badges (c1903-10)..... also seen used as an Officers Cap Badge in 1914


Lt.Col. The Hon. P C Evans-Freke in 1914, K&K 1318 in his SD Cap (K&K 1424 was in production for Officers Collars & Cap at this time as well).


Other Ranks Cap Badge K&K 1423 (c1916-27)