Indian Long Range Squadron (ILRS) badge

[Mike B]

Your post (15 above) provides wise advice Frank.
Mike

[castagain]

Keith, it appears your friends are saying you are offering fake badges to other Forum members. Is that the case?

[Frank Kelley]

Just as well you mentioned the number fifteen, otherwise, it might have been assumed we were discussing baking!

Originally Posted by Mike B

Your post (15 above) provides wise advice Frank.
Mike

[popskipa]

Hello Castigan et al.

I do not sell fake badges, and I am insulted by the accusation.

The forum is a great place to discuss and express opinion about military badges, however I doubt it is the right place for rare special forces insignia.

Len Whittaker illustrated two ILRS badges in Some Talk of Private Armies, these are smaller than the badge the subject of this thread. There is a ILRS badge in his collection which is exactly the same as the one the subject of this thread. I believe he obtained the badge after his book had gone to print.

I have been collecting for over fifty years. My speciality is the LRDG, ILRS and PPA. I have more experience than most people with the insignia of these units, but do not regard myself as expert as collecting is a constant learning process - just when you think you have seen it all something else turns up.

The badge under discussion in this thread is, in my opinion, original. It conforms in every detail to an example in the established Whittaker collection. Furthermore I am sure of its originality and I will give a life time guarantee.

Keith

[marievictor]

In my opinion (and I am sure to be not the only one) it is not sorry for that.
Sand cast is easy to copy but details are not so good as on originals ones (see the flags for example...) and of course lugs are the most difficult to copy!
You can also understand we cannot give all informations on a forum :
"counterfeiters are taking advantage of these informations."
You can also understand it is difficult to sell a such badge every month as for PPA badge for example !!
Marievictor

[Mike B]

In support of Keith - one thing that is absolutely certain is that Len got most of his items from veterans. That is a fact, and a tribute to his hard graft tracking sources. I doubt many of us have met anyone else like him. If the item compares positively with a Len item I would not write it off. Think about all the LRDG badges that 'flooded the market' after the D L-O stash came to light. It does happen, but of course everyone agrees you have to be very very cautious, even sceptical. There is also no doubt that fakes and reproduced items are a blight on the hobby and take away a lot of enjoyment. The forum can sometimes 'build a head of steam' and cause confusion. There are numerous example of this in the field of Special Forces. That said, it is also an exceptional resource for pooling knowledge - but evidence based please, not speculation or 'hunches'. I agree that anyone new to this aspect of the hobby will be looking for concrete signs of what is right or wrong, it is inevitable that these are few and far between. Attribution is everything. As I constantly remind myself - at the end of the day you have to be happy in yourself and it is without doubt a tough apprenticeship without the guidance of people like Len. Sorry for the rant but it has been brewing for a while ... I expect I will get some stick but there we go ...

Mike

[marievictor]

Sorry but it is not intuition. I know what I say. Look at the flags from this (one of my ILRS badges) badge with good provenance !!! LEN what a great Collector but perhaps he was not the only one!
Everyone can say "expert" to sell fake badges to gullible collectors.



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[marievictor]

Sorry for my poor english but I hope now you trust me

[WWIIBuff]

Thank you all for your comments so far. Some good advice has been given to me here, and I agree that ultimately I must be the one who is comfortable with the badge if I am going to spend money on it. I may be new to the world of British badge collecting, but I do have a 15 year old militaria collection containing almost two thousand items, some quite rare or unique, so I understand the importance of this.

I am sure that, as is the case on any militaria forum when it comes to rare items, most people making comment have never handled an original example of the item in question. This is probably even more so the case when it comes to special forces badges, but all that means is that there will be fewer opinions as a result of handling originals, and more as a result of reference material. So the question is, how accurate and complete is that reference material.

With that said, we have two members here who have handled and own what they consider to be original examples, although two different variations. One of those examples appeared in a well respected publication, and one did not.

So for the purpose of continuing this discussion for all to learn from, can either of the two members who own these badges provide a bit more background about their badge? For example did they come from an ILRS veteran directly, or from someone else? Is there any additional information to support the fact that there were two different variations of this badge, or information to discount that fact as one member has implied?

I do not believe that the fact that two of these rare badges have come on the market recently has any bearing on the matter whatsoever - at least not by that fact alone. I have had it happen to me several times where after searching for a rare item for a long time, and I finally find one, another becomes available right after my purchase. Remember the old saying, "feast or famine".

Thanks again for all the comments.

[Kiwi ric]

Originally Posted by WWIIBuff

Thank you all for your comments so far. Some good advice has been given to me here, and I agree that ultimately I must be the one who is comfortable with the badge if I am going to spend money on it. I may be new to the world of British badge collecting, but I do have a 15 year old militaria collection containing almost two thousand items, some quite rare or unique, so I understand the importance of this.

I am sure that, as is the case on any militaria forum when it comes to rare items, most people making comment have never handled an original example of the item in question. This is probably even more so the case when it comes to special forces badges, but all that means is that there will be fewer opinions as a result of handling originals, and more as a result of reference material. So the question is, how accurate and complete is that reference material.

With that said, we have two members here who have handled and own what they consider to be original examples, although two different variations. One of those examples appeared in a well respected publication, and one did not.

So for the purpose of continuing this discussion for all to learn from, can either of the two members who own these badges provide a bit more background about their badge? For example did they come from an ILRS veteran directly, or from someone else? Is there any additional information to support the fact that there were two different variations of this badge, or information to discount that fact as one member has implied?

I do not believe that the fact that two of these rare badges have come on the market recently has any bearing on the matter whatsoever - at least not by that fact alone. I have had it happen to me several times where after searching for a rare item for a long time, and I finally find one, another becomes available right after my purchase. Remember the old saying, "feast or famine".

Thanks again for all the comments.

Fantastic post. As you know by now collecting and finding good information on rare items is almost as hard to find as the badges/items themselves. When you get answers. its often a yes or no, or short of information, this is prevalent in the world of special/elite forces badges/items.

You have to remember information is King in this hobby. A good example of why people hold the information so close is Ebay, people will keep silent on an auction knowing all well if its orignal or not, to with luck edge out people who are not quite as informed.

Or people are freaking out that people who make copy's of badges will get the information they need to make better reproductions. But the boat left the dock years ago in regards to that.

Your doing the right thing by asking people for their views, and from there and what little or plenty of information you get, you have to make the hard call.

But don't collect just on what other peoples opinions are, its a very bad way to collect these items, It takes a huge part of the collecting out of your hands and into others. More badges will show up, its never a case of having to buy now. and during that time, you can be researching or following information trails to badges with 100% providence.

/rant over and good lucky

[Mike B]

OK - So lets remind ourselves of the badges Len illustrates in STOPA - Attached

Marie Victor - yes has the markings on the pendants you highlight - a useful sign for sure

See also the silver one I have - same markings

I hope this is helpful

It is a brave person who calls himself an 'expert' in this area of collecting. I think we are all learning all the time - certainly true for me after 50 years at it. The aim is to help one another learn.

Mike

[arnhem2280]

I see this badge is now for sale on our favouite flea bay site for a buy it now price of £375.00. Also from the same seller a Popski badge. Malayan Peoples badge and an RSR badge.
All the above are at buy it now prices if anyone is interested. Not for me as outside my interests.
I have no connection with the seller or his shop in case anyone is interested

[atillathenunns]

I do not agree with Popskipa Keiths comments that this forum is not the right place to discuss and express opinions for rare special forces insignia.
I have an interest in badges worn by New Zealand special forces and some of the information shared on this forum by its New Zealand members is way better than any information that can be found elsewhere.

However if you express an opinion, you should be prepared to explain how and why you have come to that opinion.
Keith do you have a picture of the ILRS badge from the Whittaker collection that you mention?
Has the Whittaker ILRS badge got any provenance to an actual veteran?

Indian badges are not my area of interest, but this picture of an Indian Long Range Squadron badge that was sold by Bosleys in 2013 may be of interest to other members.

[Mike B]

Atillathenunns
Thanks - for the actual badge see post 26
Regards
Mike