NOT A 25th BATTALION OFFICER BADGE

[N.S. Regt.]

Although I have mentioned about the differences in 25th battalion two piece other ranks badges and officers badges and have seen a number of other ranks badges being sold and bringing big money as they are misidentified as a officer badge. I been collecting mainly 25th battalion material for about 30 years buying some material in my teens and have gathered a deceint collection of it.

I am writing this to educate the people here so they can pass on what I been telling others for years about 25th battalion badges. I am doing this in a number of parts first to show examples of the badges in question second showing period photos of the men wearing the badges, third surviving examples of caps and a grouping of attributed badges and finally forth the true officers badge.

Part 1) The badge in question and the variations and types

The 25th battalion was not badged untill their arrival in the U.K other then the shoulder numerals and some of the C/25 collars which were made in Canada everything else was made in the U.K. The other ranks two piece badges are made by J.R. Gaunt London are fairly common and have a few varieties and variations the most common is a darkened maple leaf with a white metal overlay attached by pins of white metal and are visible on the back of the badge this badge was owned by 414154 C.S.M. Harold Cassidy D.C.M. there is also a variation which the overlay is attached by brass pins which is a little more scarce this example is unattributed. There is also a variation of the overlay which is lugged to date I have not seen any period photos of other ranks wearing it as a badge or have I seen any surviving documented examples on caps this example however was owned by 734266 Sgt. Harold Clintion MacKinnion. There is also a version having gilded overlay on a white metal maple leaf these are very scarce and the example in my collection is the only one I know of I have not been able to attribute this badge to either the officers or other ranks but suspect it may be a private purchase officer or NCO badge.

[N.S. Regt.]

The following badges are odd variations as they are two separate pieces the overlay being the lugged version described above and the maple leaf having holes cut for the lugs to pass through both are the same striking as the the above badges they are different only by the method of the attachment of the overlay, this badge is undistributed. Lastly is a real oddball made by the veteran who wore it also came from the collection of material belonging to 734266 Sgt. Harold Clintion MacKinnion and consist of the Gaunt overlay with the makers tag mainly removed and a Tiptaft made other ranks badge with the lugs removed and holes made in the badge.

[N.S. Regt.]

Part 2 Period photographic evidence.

I have only noted this badge in use in either in very late war or post war photos nothing prior to the fall of 1918. The first three photos are of men from the transport section the photo was named and not the best quality it was owned by a veteran pictured in the photo and was taken in Milford, Surrey, England after April 1919. If you look at the cap badge just above the stem of the leaf you can see the shadow of the overlay in each photo they are in order 414923 Pte Arthur Murphy, 67191 Sgt. James Smart and 4063305 L-Cpl William Thomas Gumbleton. The forth photo is 734266 Sgt. Harold Clintion MacKinnion mentioned above this was taken on his arrival home to Halifax on May 21 1919 along with his badges I also have the tunic and crutches in the photo as well a number of other personal effects connected with his service with the 25th battalion. Lastly are a few images from a photo of a company taken after Dec. 1918 while the 25th was in Germany you will note as well the mix of C/25 collars and maple leaf collars.

[N.S. Regt.]

Part 3 Surviving caps and a attributed collection of badges

These caps have been in my collection for over 20 years and I know are good and not messed with first is undistributed but came from a good source it is a cloth cap with a two piece badge on front the area around the badge shows wear consistent with the badge being on the cap for sometime and is in the shape of the badge. The second cap is wool and shows the same wear as the first cap this one is attributed to 3255457 Pte. Rutherford Lewis Bustard and came with a number of other personal effects. Lastly is a collection of Cap badges belonging to 734266 Sgt. Harold Clintion MacKinnion all the variations have been described above. I always suspected but was never able to prove that the lugged version of the overlay was not worn on its own which is why MacKinnion went through the effort to trouble to put hole in his Tiptaft made badge.

[N.S. Regt.]

Part 4 Officers badges the real thing.

These badges I do not see very often and are rather scarce when compared to the other ranks two piece badge they were also worn by the RSM and possibly the RQSM of the battalion as well. There are two varieties with two variations each first is the lugged version of the overlay it is cast bronze or copper and gilded it has east-west lugs and is marked "THE G&S CO. 112 REGENT ST. LONDON" many of you know this is the Gold and Silversmith Company of London England who were known for making high quality officer badges and the "2" in "25" is cut out at the bottom. The second is similar but has north-west lugs but is unmarked and the "2" in "25" is not cut out at the bottom, the example shown is attributed to 67863 RSM Frank W. Hinchcliffe M.C. who was killed at Vimy Ridge I got this and some of his other insignia directly from the family and was told they sent this home with his effects after he was killed. The second variety has the overlay attached to a darkened bronze maple leaf attached by rivets north and south with east-west lugs the "2" in "25" is cut out at the bottom, this badge is attributed to Lieut. Robert Trueman Patchell and came with a complete set of officers insignia and his dog tags. The final variation has north south lugs rivets at east and west and the "2" in "25" is not cut out at the bottom.

I hope you have found this information informative as well as interesting my goal in bringing you this is to dispel the myth that the two piece other ranks badge is a officers badge I only hope now some of you are convinced of it and not buying a badge that is bought as a officer badge.

Thanks for looking
Stephen

[Bill A]

Great information, Stephen. I believe you have clearly made the case as to which ranks wore which of these badges.

[N.S. Regt.]

Thanks Bill for your comments.

I have recently seen another thing about 25th Battalion insignia that I thought I would bring to everyone's attention.

On eBay I see there is two little white metal collars being sold as officers and I have no idea who the seller is or am I condemning them for listing the collars as officer and I would like to bring up a few points and show examples of these collars and known examples of officer collars.

The white metal collars listed on eBay are made by Tiptaft as they closely follow the striking of the brass maple leaf versions by the same firm with the outer part of leaf removed there is also a matching badge but the leaf is fully removed but again is the same striking as the brass maple leaf version. I have in my collection a collar similar to the white metal version but in brass but suspect this is a modified piece and did not start out this way. I have never seen this White metal badge or collars in any period photos or been able to attribute them to a veteran and due to them being somewhat scarce I think they were never officially issued. Anyone buying these collars should consider them as a non official badge in my opinion and being scarce bid or buy accordingly, but they are not what I see shown in period photos of officer collars I have included a photo of the badge (front and back) with a collar so you can see the difference in size

The officer collars are the same as the badges are originally gilt and cast and have the maple leaf totally removed. I have never seen one with a maple leaf either as a surviving example or in period photos. I have noted a couple of variations of the striking which I will go over. First the collars come in both marked and unmarked versions these unmarked versions seem to have a deeper cut below the "2" in "25" which is more clearly shown from the back also with the unmarked versions there is also a slight difference in the crowns from the cross at the top there is one version which has one larger ball and four smaller balls going to the base of the crown the other has only three of the smaller balls. The marked versions has the company marking found on the officer badges but with only a very slight or no cut present under the "2" in "25" and all observed so far have the three small balls in the crown as the previous unmarked version.These collars again are scarce and will not come up very often. Again I have shown a badge with a collar so you can compare the size as well as the variations I described above.

[N.S. Regt.]

I am including a number of period photos of the officers wearing their collars you will note that all have the maple leaf removed from the collar as shown in my above post and are not like the white metal versions made by Tiptaft the first three are from "Nova Scotia's Part in the Great War" by Hunt the last two are a unidentified officer in a large frame it is not the best but does show the collars in use. The first photo is of Lt. Col. John Wise D.S.O., M.C., M.I.D., (French) Croix de Guerre he started with the Battalion as a private and came up through the ranks he commanded the 25th battalion from April 20 1918 until August 8 1018. Second is Lieut.-Col. Blois, Arthur Osborne D.S.O., M.I.D. he originally enlisted in the 64th battalion and came to the 25th as a officer reinforcement he commanded the 25th battalion from July 15 1917 until April 20 1918. Third is Lieut-Col. Bauld, Duncan Stanley M.I.D. he commanded the 25th battalion from April 4 1917 until July 15 1917. Last two is the unidentified officer.

I think period photos are just as important as the badges themselves because with them there is no doubt what was worn by who. If anyone else has anyother information or examples to add I would like to know

I again hope you have found this information useful

Regasrd
Stephen

[Bill A]

Great information Stephen.
Without knowing the provenance of the white metal collars, there will be many interpretations of their use. Again, I think you have made a strong case, based on evidence as to the actual history of the badges.

[N.S. Regt.]

Thanks again Bill

These Tiptaft white metal collars and badges are amoung the more scarce of the Battalion insignia and should fetch a good price. In 30 years I have only seen about 8 collars and maybe four or five of the badges. In comparision I have seen about a dozen officer badges of the different types and maybe about 15 collars.

Stephen

[Tom337]

I apologize for resurrecting an older thread but just wanted to thank you Stephen for all of your excellent posts in regards to Nova Scotia related CEF badges. It's been quite the education and as a neophyte in this area, very greatly appreciated.

I was wondering if you could comment on this recently posted Ebay item, in particular the significance of the red felt(?) that seems to be captured between the white metal overlay and the brass base.

Again, many thanks for your posts to date.

[Bill A]

Hi Tom, No need to apologize. The purpose of the threads is for education and comment. What was discussed at one time is still relevant at a later date. This is very important in our hobby, as many old repros are now showing up as authentic badges. On the other hand, if older information is being challenged or subject to change, bringing back the thread gives us all a chance to re-think and understand the points under consideration.

[Tom337]

All very true Bill and a major reason why I find the forums and the members thoughts so important. As I noted, I'm a complete novice in regards to CEF badges and find the info captured here invaluable. Thanks for the reply!

Cheers,
Elliott

[Tom337]

Well the cap and 25th Nova Scotia CEF badge went for a pretty penny but I'm still curious if anyone has any additional info on what the significance is of the red felt between the white overlay and brass base?

From all I've been able to glean from the forums it looks like an ORs badge. Some of the officer's badges listed on the CEF photo project show officer's gilt badges with red backing but none show the red felt inserted between base and overlay in this manner. (Or perhaps I've missed it and my eyesight is just deteriorating.... )

Cheers,
Elliott

[Seathanaich]

Good day gents. I'd like some opinions, please.

Does this look like an authentic 25th (Nova Scotia) Bn, CEF cap badge to you? The first photo shows the front. There is no wear on the badge from having ever been polished. The metal had an oily colour to it - the dark colour is difficult to describe other than "dark". It's not patina'd bronze, nor is it a particulaly brown tint of browning brass. The second and third photos show the back. There is a rectangular "JR GAUNT LONDON" tab on the back. These are found on legitimate badges of course - does anyone have them on a re-strike? Since the metal colour is "odd", I polished the badge, something I don't always do. The dark tint changed to a colour best described as dirty yellow. It's not the full-on bright yellow of some Tiptaft badges, like the 2nd, 4th, 27th, and another 25th that I have. The fourth and fifth photos show the badge after a quick polish with Brasso. There is discolouration on the right side from the lug, visible both front and back. It's a bit coppery on the front, a bit blackened on the back around that lug. The lugs are NOT Tiptaft style.

So . . . is this a known repro?