more thoughts on Guards' full dress badges

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Thanks to all.

I have [fingers crossed] asked Guards Museum for comment although past experience is not encouraging.

Will report back if I get anywhere further.

Yes, I get the same lack of response from the RLC Museum. In fact as far as questions on 'Forming Corps' insignia goes, particularly RAOC, they ask me LoL

Have sent you the section on Full Dress from Mat Regs in Doc Format.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

I think all such add-ons to rank slides are unoffical no matter what regiment Andy. I think other regiments seem to turn a blind eye to Crossed Rifles (Skill at Arms Instructor), Crossed Swords (PTI) or Crossed Flags (Signaler)

In fact other than the standard Woodland & Desert Rank Slides all 'Regimental Style' Slides are Regimental or Private Purchase.
[Not sure if the Guards Officers Stars are issue or not? I will have a look later in JSP768 illustrated Defence Clothing Catalogue CD-ROM]

Only such badges worn by Senior Ranks & Warrant Officers on any form of dress are those 'Awarded in Perpetuity' such as Parachute Wings as listed in JSP336 MATERIEL REGULATIONS FOR THE ARMY.

JSP336 lists such badges as

Section 3 Badges of Appointment and Qualification

Annex A Advanced Skill At Arms and Instructors Badges
Annex B Skill At Arms Badges
Annex C Employment Badges

I have also managed to find a reference to 'Full Dress' which would appear to be the approved list of such badges 'Special to the Guards Division' in Clothing Catalogues.

JSP 336 3rd EDITION

VOLUME 12

PART 3 – CLOTHING

PAMPHLET 12 – FULL DRESS

CONTENTS

Section 3 FULL DRESS SCALES

Annex C Guards Division – Full Dress

SCALE 3 - FULL DRESS, THE GUARDS DIVISION, SOLDIERS

Badge, arm
Colour, gold, blue, large, Worn on tunic by WOs 2, CSgts and CQMSs.

Crown in wreath, gold, blue, Worn by RQMS.

Crown, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on greatcoat by WOs 2, CSgts, Sgts and CQMSs.

Drum, gold, blue, large, Drum majors.

Drum, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on blue grey greatcoat by drum majors.

Grenade, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, GREN GDS.

Grenade, worsted, Worn on tunic by pnrs, GREN GDS.

Hatchets, crossed, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, Guards Division.

Hatchets, crossed, worsted, Pnrs, Guards Division.

Leek, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, WG.

Leek, worsted, Pnr Sgts, WG.

Rose, gold and silver on blue, Pnr Sgts, COLDM GDS.

Rose, worsted, Pnrs, COLDM GDS.

Royal Arms, gold, scarlet, large, Worn on tunic by RSMs of bns; GSM London District.

Royal Arms, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on greatcoat, as for immediately preceding article.

Star, gold and silver, blue, Pnr Sgts, SG and IG.

Star, worsted, Pnr, SG and IG

.....................................

From the above it seems badges on Blue is acceptable?

Mike,
no disrespect intended in this reply, however Soldiers from the Corps seem to be the main wearers of SAA & PTI Combat 95 rank slides, quite an achievement to have a trade and a specialist qualification and not many in the Corps, whereas most Infantry NCOs are SAA qualified.

As to Guards Rank Stars, the cloth stars/crowns are still private purchase and the slides made up by the Regtl Tailor, however some private purchase slides with the stars embroidered onto them have started to be introduced. Only rank insignia for official dress uniform is supplied to officers through the official system, everything else is paid for at private expense. MPs please note!!!

Andy

[Mike_2817]

No disrespect taken, it was more of a general observation. I look in at John Bulls Military Shop at Catterick Garrison when in the area, and he sells a wide selection of such slides.

Back in the day of the RAOC we had Military Training Instructors (MTI) who were not tradesman, in fact many were ex Infantry, but in the RLC of today they are 'Regimently Employed' on short posting after being selected then return to trade afterwards, and if further promoted become the pool for selection to SSM [as in Squadron Sergeant Major] & later RSM.

I see a cross section of such slides being worn by both the Corps & Regiments [even by Privates or whatever called] and there does not seem to be any set rule for CS95.

Do not see many wearing No2 Dress either that much these days, but it is being re-introduced.

[Mike_2817]

Just had a look in JSP768 illustrated Defence Clothing Catalogue and while I could find Metal Stars for all the Guards Regiments (in fact all 'Pips' are in fact called 'Stars') I could find no Guards Officers Camouflage Rank Slides. So they must be Regimental PRI items!

Only ones I could find that differed from the normal rank range were

Khaki on Green DPM & Desert

Corporal of Horse - 2 Chevrons with Crown above
Drum Major - 4 Reverse Chevrons with Crown above
Master Gunner 2nd Class - Royal Arms with Gun RA below
Master Gunner 1st Class - Royal Arms in Wreath with Gun RA below
Conductor RLC - Royal Arms in Wreath

Yet I have seen Pipe Major Slides in Scotish Regiments and Drums on NCO Slides as well come to think about it! (Corps of Drums perhaps?)

also Silver on Black for RLC EOD

Lance Corporal to WO1 and Capitan, Major & Lt Col

of which I am still missing the Major & Lt Col examples!

[gary gibbs]

What I have been able to find out is that all badges worn on Home Service clothing are on what is known as dark navy blue backing with the exception of the Sergeant Major whos big badge in on scarlet.

Only officer have the scarlet backing to their badges ie. para wings, commando dagger, light bulb, SAS wings or Army Air Corps wing

hope that helps

[Unknownsoldier]

I'll have to dig out my SAS Guards wings, belonged to guy who got a BEM (Seconded from the life guards IIRC) on one Op Termite IIRC, backed in dark blue/almost black.

Tom

[grumpy]

Thanks everyone. My finished article has been accepted by MHS Bulletin for publication.

My conclusion is that all rank and 'trade' badges, and GC badges, have always been on dark navy blue with the one exception of the RSM Large Badge, which is on scarlet.

[Unknownsoldier]

Here are my wings, belonging to Oliver Levett, Life Guards attd SAS; If memory serves Acting Seargent, 8 troop, B sqn in the 50s.

Tom