Regular Infantry First World War Economy Issue Badges

[Alan O]

Chaps,

Following on from another thread, this is my BW badge in brass. There is the same die flaw below the sphinx as seen on the early wm badges. The flaw has been partially knocked out it is very clear from the back. i really don't think that it is a brass economy - so is it a fake using an old die or could the Bn have worn yellow brass ones in Edwardian times?

Any thoughts?

Alan

[Luke H]

Alan,

This is a really sticky one, but if it is a fake using the old die then logically there is no reason why the same die could not have been reused to strike white metal examples which must surely cast suspicion on wm versions of this badge also.

Could you post a picture of the back also please, and does it pass the bend test?

Luke

[Saddle tree maker]

Is there any evidence that the die-flawed badge was accepted and worn in white-metal by the regiment ?
STM.

[Alan O]

There is no evidence that it was not and it is shown in the collection shown in Wilkinson's book. I have a w/m example that has some polish wear to it so it appears to have been worn by someone.

Alan

[Saddle tree maker]

I'm surprised the badge made it into the book as Wilkinson states in the forward.... " Original badges were cheap to produce, and imperfect specimens were never issued, so each badge should be examined for any flaws or imperfect details ".
STM.

[KLR]

I'm surprised at that one, I've seen loads of badges which have (mostly tiny) flaws. I'm not a military man myself (and therefore prepared to be shot down) but it seems that there were many who didn't notice or didn't care what tiny things were on their badges, they had more important things to get on with.

[Saddle tree maker]

Point taken, though a list of said flawed badges may be of interest, perhaps with photo's, too. I have not seen many originals with flaws, I can't off hand think of any, to be honest, though plenty of copies with them.
I would be interested in any photo's of flawed originals, especially Cavalry and Yeomanry. (Excluding partly voided badges).
STM.

[Alan O]

The back and side on view of the brass BW badge.

This is a wm version

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...ayphotohosting

Alan

[Saddle tree maker]

Agreed.
I think in terms of badge pictures IMO Wilkinson's is far better than the acknowledged 'Great badge book's' and whoever the collection belonged to, it is a very good one.
Like all badge collections, though, both past and present, there are the odd anomolies and I would direct you to badge #207 as an example - The Border regt all brass economy with voided centre and solid crown - which in view of our past discussion begs the question, can it be a right one ?
If not, then the collection is just that - A very good one, but. . . . .
STM.

[Alan O]

Oh I know - that Border Regt badge has vexed me. It looks so much like an Offrs Bz but has a slider. I would dearly love to see whether it was original to be badge or had been added on. There are a couple of the Irish badges that are also 'interesting' variations. The pictures are so good compared to any other book but then the descriptions really let it down.

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

A couple of years ago a friend who had a militaria stall gave me an old brass KOSB badge with a QVC, the lion had broken off and was absent, the back was heavily stained brown with a steel hinged slider that had broken leaving half an inch left on the hinge. Just for good measure, someone had subjected this relic to a wire wheel. It was obviously a ground dug item. My friend said maybe I could do something with it, I did, I put it in a box in my bureau until now.
When I looked it up in my copy of Bloomers Vol. and TF Btns, to my surprise it was a pre 1881 25th Kings Own Borderers Officers Foreign Service Helmet Badge, Gilt with a hinged slider.
I have the theory that maybe these badges were struck in brass and had the gilt applied later. I seem to remember reading somewhere that brass was very receptive to applied finishes. Maybe some of these anomalies were meant to be finished as Officers gilt badges.

[Diehard]

Hi All,

Sorry Alan, if this is straying slightly from your original subject ie Black Watch. But I thought this might be of interest on the subject of mystery 'economy' badges.

I have had this Border Regt badge for over 20 years. It is very yellow g/m with a coating of w/m. However the coating is heavily worn ? There are just a few very minor traces of it on the front. On the rear you can see it much more clearly.

Originally this badge had a good patina which suggested to me it was some years old.

Curiosity got the better of me and I cleaned it to get a better look at it which i would never normally do.

What I find strange about it is, firstly why bother coating it ? Secondly I assume the badge has been excessively polished and the coating removed, but why is there still so much detail left on the badge. I would have thought there would be more wear ?

I'm assuming its not an officers/NCOs silver coated badge as it has a slider.

Any thoughts?

[Diehard]

Alan,

Getting back to the original subject. I wrote to the B W museum to ask about brass / g/m badges. If I get a response I'll post it on the forum.

I've got a slightly darker g/m version to yours. It is a well stamped, sturdy badge, nicely domed with strong lugs.

It would be good to get to the bottom of this dilemma.

Will

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

Agreed.
I think in terms of badge pictures IMO Wilkinson's is far better than the acknowledged 'Great badge book's' and whoever the collection belonged to, it is a very good one.
Like all badge collections, though, both past and present, there are the odd anomolies and I would direct you to badge #207 as an example - The Border regt all brass economy with voided centre and solid crown - which in view of our past discussion begs the question, can it be a right one ?
If not, then the collection is just that - A very good one, but. . . . .
STM.

STM,

As I mentioned before I'm sure the wm and bm badges Gaylor lists in his WW1 economy list (which shouldn't have appeared in all brass variants) were struck in brass whether wrongly or as a pseudo economy measure in limited numbers but this was quite unofficial. As Gaylors list was made pre-restrike as to was publication of Wilkinson's book this is my reason for believing that they do 'exist' and are a genuine contemporary badge some of which were certainly worn but were not an economy issue and unofficial or off record badge.

There is a further puzzler in that book as an all brass Northamptonshire is actually the regimental castle variety!

Alan, from what I can see of your badge from that photo I can't see anything blatantly wrong with it. Indeed its obviously has age and the domed appearance is in keeping with genuine wm versions.

Luke

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Diehard

What I find strange about it is, firstly why bother coating it ? Secondly I assume the badge has been excessively polished and the coating removed, but why is there still so much detail left on the badge. I would have thought there would be more wear ?

I'm assuming its not an officers/NCOs silver coated badge as it has a slider.

Any thoughts?

Diehard,

My opinion is that these badges were plated so as to match the standard white metal badge the regiment wore and not 'stick out' as it were as when on parade (in the case of originals) or to deceive (if a restrike). This I would say with your badge was done during production rather than being plated after its service life (as was sometimes done to badges kept as mementos) as the slider is not plated which generally happens when the latter process is done.

I have seen this exact same process done to Cameron Highlander, Seaforth Highlander, Rifle Brigade, Beds & Herts Regt and Border Regt badges.

The question I believe is if you restrike a badge in a cheaper metal i.e. brass... ok makes sense money-wise, then plate it to deceive a buyer... why then polish it so the original 'wrong' metal comes through? I believe this has happened with some badges being restruck in brass then plated as the brass is very poor quality and the plating has just rubbed off on the high points. However I believe from some of these badges were made contemporary to the period of wear and that they were issued and worn as judging by the age, patina, slider, bull etc all the signs with certain badges I've seen at fairs etc have looked good and correct to me.

As for your badge I'd need to get my hands on it to be sure, but its certainly been polished (mostly by the squaddie I hope and not your good self [joke]), the badge certainly isn't modern (not newly made), the slider looks OK, are there 4 or 5 voids on the dragon? 5 I think is best, the stamping looks good despite being covered in plate, the backing tangs look fine and their patina and that of the slider has age to it. Nothing wrong sticks out (to me any way) so I'm going to stick my neck out and say yeah why shouldn't it be real.

Luke