Tower Hamlets Rifles - Sealed Pattern - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Jelly Terror · #1 27-07-18, 07:33 AM

Would anyone happen to know the SP date for the THR cap badge, please?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=83366

With thanks,

JT

badjez · #2 27-07-18, 07:57 AM

JT,

As it is a TF unit it is doubtful any sealed patterns exists. These badges were provisioned by local TA Associations so the War Office were not involved. The first sealed patterns for TF were usually Gt War or post-1922.

Sorry I cannot be more positive.

Stephen.

KLR · #3 27-07-18, 08:10 AM

Stephen is right - that there are no SP for 1908 TF badges (sadly) UNLESS you find a London HQ / archive - they are not in the Mus of Lond !
Apparently, there are a number for some part of Scotland - Glasgow ???? that the late David Linaker found.

What I can tell you is that in 1915 the WO did give WO Patt nos to the TF badges (a few were let out). The first 1915 batch were given three digit numbers and finally given four digit (as the regulars) in 1917.

I might have something that resides in the mess that is the current state of Badges of the 1st WW PART 2.

I'll get back to you
J

KLR · #4 27-07-18, 08:19 AM

I must apologise, there IS some pre 1914 data at the NAM.
I can also tell you that the 1915 Patt no was
616/1915 17th City of London Batt, London Regt GM Bronzed ('bronzed' in WO parlance means 'blackened')
The date in 1915 should be at TNA

BTW I doubt if anyone can find a physical SP - all I can do is collate all the documentary sources.

Wmr-RHB · #5 27-07-18, 08:22 AM

Hm, I stand to be corrected.

But as far as I know the badge is that of 17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles), (a TA battalion of of The Prince Consort's Own (The Rifle Brigade)) from 1926 on. In 1937 they became The Tower Hamlets Rifles, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own).
Thus when the caption of the picture is correct it shows a post 1937 make of the badge (or made earlier, but after 1926, where there is provenance of it being in use post 1937?)

All the time part of the TA and not of the pre 1914 TF. Thus I guess that

Quote:

The first sealed patterns for TF were usually Gt War or post-1922.

is applicable here (except that there was no TF anymore).

As an addition can be added that they were in the TF as 17th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and in the TA from 1920-22 with the same designation. From 1922-26 they were 17th London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles).

Jelly Terror · #6 27-07-18, 08:26 AM

Thanks gents,

Given that official designation for this unit did not come about until 1926, and that there are other SPs for similar units (QW&CSR to name but one), I was hopeful of a date... possibly 1930s.

JT

Alan O · #7 27-07-18, 08:41 AM

I believe that he design dates from 1937 when the London Regt was reorganised and the 17th London was made a TF Bn of the Rifle Brigade. Although the title changed in 1926, the badge did not.

Jelly Terror · #8 27-07-18, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Hm, I stand to be corrected.

But as far as I know the badge is that of 17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles), (a TA battalion of of The Prince Consort's Own (The Rifle Brigade)) from 1926 on. In 1937 they became The Tower Hamlets Rifles, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own).
Thus when the caption of the picture is correct it shows a post 1937 make of the badge (or made earlier, but after 1926, where there is provenance of it being in use post 1937?)

All the time part of the TA and not of the pre 1914 TF. Thus I guess that
is applicable here (except that there was no TF anymore).

As an addition can be added that they were in the TF as 17th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and in the TA from 1920-22 with the same designation. From 1922-26 they were 17th London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles).

As an aside, am I correct in thinking that the 'Poplar and Stepney' designation was dropped by 1926, and the unit re-designated at that time to '17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles) Territorial Army' (AO427/1926)?

Wmr-RHB · #9 27-07-18, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

As an aside, am I correct in thinking that the 'Poplar and Stepney' designation was dropped by 1926, and the unit re-designated at that time to '17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles) Territorial Army' (AO427/1926)?

I think that is consistent with the information I have. In 1926 they changed from Poplar and Stepney to Tower Hamlets. While the 1920, 1922 and 1937 re-designations were done to all of the former (and still existing in the TA Infantry) London Regiment units, this 1926 change is special to this unit.

They apparently wanted to refer to one of the two units that were merged to create the 1908 TF unit: 2nd Tower Hamlets Volunteer Rifle Corps and 15th Middlesex (The Customs and the Docks) Volunteer Rifle Corps.

matti467 · #10 27-07-18, 11:35 AM

Any of these answers got your 'seal' of approval ?

Jelly Terror · #11 27-07-18, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matti467

Any of these answers got your 'seal' of approval ?

Remind me not to take you next time we go clubbing!

Alan O · #12 27-07-18, 12:26 PM

There should be a S/P for this badge as by 1937 the TF were supplied by the WD. It was only 1908-15 that the TF associations sourced badges. In 1916 the WD took over supply.

Jelly Terror · #13 27-07-18, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

There should be a S/P for this badge as by 1937 the TF were supplied by the WD. It was only 1908-15 that the TF associations sourced badges. In 1916 the WD took over supply.

It'd be nice to learn precisely when the THR cap badge actually came into use, disparity between S/P date and issue notwithstanding.

JT

KLR · #14 27-07-18, 02:17 PM

I'm going to the NA in a week or two - mostly for 17th c material but I'll drag myself into the 20th century for you ! So I will look up post (1st) war records but I don't have any immediate plans to go to NAM (still haven't been since their rebuilding !)
Actually I wouldn't know a Hackney badge if I fell over one so I'll go for 17th Bn, Hackney Rifles - are there any other titles ???

Jelly. I just found details of 17th Bn

the badge (presumably the same badge as in 1915) received the 'new / regular 4 digit Patt no 8988/1916 on 27.06.1916

Jelly Terror · #15 27-07-18, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR

I'm going to the NA in a week or two - mostly for 17th c material but I'll drag myself into the 20th century for you ! So I will look up post (1st) war records but I don't have any immediate plans to go to NAM (still haven't been since their rebuilding !)
Actually I wouldn't know a Hackney badge if I fell over one so I'll go for 17th Bn, Hackney Rifles - are there any other titles ???

That's rather decent of you, ol' chap. Thank you very much indeed.

WO 32/18642, I already have in its entirity so, time permitting, anything badge-related, post-war, connected with 'Tower Hamlets Rifles' and/or '17th London Regiment' would be gratefully received.

I owe you one.

JT