"Grenade Fired Proper"

[Toby Purcell]

Despite being the Grenadier Guards since 1815 they did not have a grenade on their buttons until the reign of Queen Victoria, in 1837. When uniforms changed to skirted tunics after the Crimean War the reverse cypher of the reigning monarch was adopted and has been used to this day. This is perhaps a first clue as to when grenades started to be affixed to anything other than the collar.

Undress caps (known as forage caps) certainly had grenades in the 1860s, as can be seen in both the attached illustrations of uniformed groups. In the colour picture the two men on the right are notable for the fact that they wear the undress forage cap. The caps are blue with a red band, the distinction of the Grenadier Guards, and a brass grenade badge on the front. The shape of the upper part is slightly bell-topped and is quite high. Other ranks below the rank of sergeant had a peakless cap while ranks above this, including officers, had gold edged peaks. In the black and white photo from 1863, Colour-Sergeant Short on the left, has a peakless forage cap with a gold band around it. Corporals and privates had red bands. Drill Sergeant Cook, in the middle is the most senior there and has a peak on his cap. The special clothing for Canada included sealskin caps with ear flaps and a badge on the front. All of these caps clearly have a grenade fired proper badge affixed.

[grenadierguardsman]

Nice one Toby, thank you. Its a shame the the Guards Museum hasn't anything in black and white to support this. Great info.
Cheers Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Nice one Toby, thank you. Its a shame the the Guards Museum hasn't anything in black and white to support this. Great info.
Cheers Andy

From what I have been able to research it seems that the Sovereign's Cypher remained the Grenadier Guards head dress badge (at front) for a long time to reflect the regiment's loyalty to (and foundation by) the monarchy and its status therefore as '1st' Foot Guards. The grenade only appeared on the uniform where it always had for Grenadier companies (which you must remember the Guards always had the same as the line), on the shoulder strap, turnbacks of the tail coat and later the collar.

It seems almost certain that the grenade first moved to the front of the headdress around about the same time as it appeared on the buttons, in 1837, and even then only on forage caps. Fusilier officers wore the grenade on the front of their bearskins and no doubt the Grenadiers did not want to look the same.

It should also be borne in mind that all Foot Guards had to have a degree of uniformity in appearance so as to make clear they were a 'body' of household troops and stronger in numbers and organisation than any line regiment (their closest rivals were rifle regiments (KRR and RB) with variously 6 and then 8 regular battalions). For the reasons of uniformity the dress distinctions had to be reined in and kept subtle, with elegance, as well as smartness, being watchwords. Therefore grouping of buttons and colour and positioning of feather plumes became key.

In undress uniform there was more flexibility, and in Queen Victoria's reign the forage cap began to be used to give the now familiar distinctions, of red, white, chequered, and green cap bands, and it was during her long reign too (1837-1902), that cap badges began to be worn as we know them today.

I hope there is no sense of teaching grandma to suck eggs. I know that you are a Grenadier and know much of this detail already so I post it for general readers. Did you see the earlier post showing the bearskin plate and kilmarnock bonnet?

[Toby Purcell]

Here is the oldest photo I have yet seen that 'clearly' shows the grenade fired proper of the Gren Gds, in this case worn on a pill box cap by a drummer. It was taken in the late 1870s.

[grenadierguardsman]

Nice interesting photo Toby.

[Malcolm Davey]

quote: and it was during her long reign too (1837-1902), that cap badges began to be worn as we know them today

Toby
Queen Victoria died 22 January 1901

Malc

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by joachim

quote: and it was during her long reign too (1837-1902), that cap badges began to be worn as we know them today

Toby
Queen Victoria died 22 January 1901

Malc

Yes, mea culpa Malc, I did know that and should have put 1901. I was forgetting that Edward VII was technically still King even before his coronation in August 1902.

[grumpy]

This is not a troll, I am genuinely fascinated.

Can I abbreviate said grenade as GFP?

I have in front of me:

R F McNair's 1869 magnificent book on the colours of the regiment, with heraldic descriptions etc.
The booklet of the 1910 Review, similarly illustrated and described
The official 1958 equivalent which says that: "after Waterloo a grenade was added". [to the relevant colours]

Also: Standing Orders GG 1939, and 1954.

Together with Bde SO 1904, 1911, 1922, 1929, 1936, 1952, 1962.

NONE of these refer to a GFP.

So, as a non Grenadier, not even an ex-soldier, can someone please explain how the phrase GFP came into being, and how on earth it can refer to a metal cap badge. Before replying please Google heraldic use of "proper". Did GG invent it? Did K&K invent it? I don't own the latter, but none of my cheaper Edwards-style and Coles-style books on badges mention such a phrase. Are we stuck with an army equivalent of an urban myth? [I am by way of a RWF enthusiast and am tempted to ask was their badge a GFP with a design on the ball?]

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

This is not a troll, I am genuinely fascinated.

Can I abbreviate said grenade as GFP?

I have in front of me:

R F McNair's 1869 magnificent book on the colours of the regiment, with heraldic descriptions etc.
The booklet of the 1910 Review, similarly illustrated and described
The official 1958 equivalent which says that: "after Waterloo a grenade was added". [to the relevant colours]

Also: Standing Orders GG 1939, and 1954.

Together with Bde SO 1904, 1911, 1922, 1929, 1936, 1952, 1962.

NONE of these refer to a GFP.

So, as a non Grenadier, not even an ex-soldier, can someone please explain how the phrase GFP came into being, and how on earth it can refer to a metal cap badge. Before replying please Google heraldic use of "proper". Did GG invent it? Did K&K invent it? I don't own the latter, but none of my cheaper Edwards-style and Coles-style books on badges mention such a phrase. Are we stuck with an army equivalent of an urban myth? [I am by way of a RWF enthusiast and am tempted to ask was their badge a GFP with a design on the ball?]

I agree that we require a provenance of this phrase "grenade fired proper", but I do know it has been very long used in the army and was used as a descriptor for insignia of the grenadier flank companies long before there was a grenadier guards. In my view it has a Hanoverian (era) ring to it and I 'suspect' (only) that that is where we shall find its origins in etymological terms.

[grumpy]

I had not thought that far back! Do you believe GFP has a current army-wide verbal usage, or only within GG and perhaps HAC?

Off to pub lunch now!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

I had not thought that far back! Do you believe GFP has a current army-wide verbal usage, or only within GG and perhaps HAC?

Off to pub lunch now!

No, I do not believe it has army-wide usage. It is used by the Gren Gds rather like other Guards will say 'Cap Star' rather than Cap Badge. That said, I do believe it has great history as a term.

[54Bty]

I had never heard this term until it was posted on here.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I had never heard this term until it was posted on here.

Thank goodness for that, I thought I had missed something!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Thank goodness for that, I thought I had missed something!

Oh ye doubting Thomas. It cannot be right if you have never heard of it??

Like I said, it is an ancient term, but one now largely only used inside the Grenadier Guards, viz this from a piece about the Gren Gds badge:

The grouping of buttons on the tunic is a common way to distinguish between the regiments of Foot Guards. Grenadier Guards' buttons are equally spaced and embossed with the Royal Cypher reversed and interlaced surrounded by the Royal Garter bearing Honi soit qui mal y pense (Evil be to him who evil thinks ). Their "Buff Belt" brass clasp also carries the Royal Cypher, modern Grenadier Guardsmen wear a cap badge of a "grenade fired proper" with seventeen flames. This cap badge has to be cleaned twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon, as it is made from brass and a tarnished grenade is frowned upon by all in the regiment.

And this from the Garter Arms of the Earl of Harrington (aka General the Earl of Stanhope and Baron Chesterfield) ennobled 1742 (before the First Foot Guards became Grenadiers):

Arms:

Quarterly Ermine and Gules

Crest: Issuant from battlements of a Tower Azure a Demi-Lion rampant Or holding between the paws a Grenade fired proper

Supporters: Dexter: A Talbot guardant Argent guttée-de-poix; Sinister: A Wolf Erminois, each supporter gorged with a Chaplet of Oak proper

Also for the (obsolete) civic arms of (appropriately) Frimley and Camberley District Council:

Crest: On a Wreath of the Colours a demi Lion queue forchée Or ducally crowned Gules holding in the paws a Grenade fired proper.

Granted 27th February 1956.

And finally, the heraldic description of the cap badge of the Highland Fusiliers of Canada:

"A grenade fired proper, with the monogram HF, the flame surmounted by the Royal Crown proper, superimposed on the cross of St. Andrew. At the base of the grenade is a motto ribbon bearing the word CANADA. The whole is embellished by a glory".

The meaning is clear. It is a heraldic description for a grenade with fuze fully aflame.

[Peter Brydon]

Most interesting ( but not very helpful in respect of this thread ) article in the MHS Bulletin of May 1974 "The Flaming Grenade- its origins as a Cap Badge " by D.G.Twomey.


The author does say "other terms used in ( the literature ) to describe the flaming grenade include the flaming hand grenade,the fired grenade,or just the grenade.

In conclusion I should like to stress that the flaming grenade badge owes its origin to a military creation.It was not copied from any heraldic device and therefore is almost unique amongst military badges"

P.B.