Light Infantry Pouch

[MarkMcM]

Hello All,

A “junk box” find. Assume a pouch or belt badge. Any ID on this one?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MarkMcM

Hello All,

A “junk box” find. Assume a pouch or belt badge. Any ID on this one?

Assuming it’s a larger size than a cap badge then it’s screw posts indicate it’s almost certainly a OBLI bandsman’s music case (pouch) badge, as worn by the vast majority of line regiment bandsmen (but not drummers or buglers). Sadly abandoned now apart from by the band of the Royal Marines, these music case/band pouch badges are a study in themselves and in some regiments a different version was worn by 1st and 2nd Battalions as a reflection of their different lineages.

[MarkMcM]

Hi Toby,

Thanks... the badge measures 41mm high x 45mm wide.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MarkMcM

Hi Toby,

Thanks... the badge measures 41mm high x 45mm wide.

It could be a Light Infantry shoulder pouch badge, as it would be difficult to tell the difference from the OBLI band pouch badge (although the latter might have been brass). That was because the unadorned bugle of the OBLI was used as the template for the LI badge when it was chosen for the new regiment post the Light Infantry Brigade. To a regalia purist like me there was some misappropriation, because shoulder belt pouches were a feature of rifle regiments, not light infantry, and no LI regiments wore them up to the withdrawal of full dress in 1914. It’s often forgotten that the old light infantry regiments were scarlet clad for centuries. In essence they had to sell their souls to the devil in order to create some sense of cohesion when they joined the Light Division alongside the Royal Green Jackets in 1966. It was a typical British and rather unsatisfactory fudge, as all the light infantry regiments gave up a lot and the ‘Black Mafia’ (RB) and ‘60th’ (KRRC) very little. Sadly history repeated itself with the formation of ‘The Rifles’ in 1996, and I think that Sir John Moore would have been turning in his grave, but Black Bob Craufurd probably not!

[MarkMcM]

Great stuff Toby! This example appears to be brass (blackened at one time).

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MarkMcM

Great stuff Toby! This example appears to be brass (blackened at one time).

I can’t imagine any reason why it was black. Even those rifle volunteer corps that to be different wore scarlet tunics with white pouch belts, used bright metal (silver) insignia, as did those with grey uniform, and brown leather pouch belts with insignia in brass. I cannot recall any that wore black.

[MarkMcM]

... it does appear to show evidence of black paint.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I can’t imagine any reason why it was black. Even those rifle volunteer corps that to be different wore scarlet tunics with white pouch belts, used bright metal (silver) insignia, as did those with grey uniform, and brown leather pouch belts with insignia in brass. I cannot recall any that wore black.

Toby,

I thats a bit of a sweeping statement.

There were hundreds and hundreds of RVC's formed from 1859 onwards and little is known of many of their uniforms of these Corps that were amalgamated, disbanded and otherwise lost in time.

I only collect part of the Lancashire RVC family and even within that small group I have lots of blackened badges off Head Dress, Pouches and Pouch Belts, to several Corps.

regards

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Toby,

I thats a bit of a sweeping statement.

There were hundreds and hundreds of RVC's formed from 1859 onwards and little is known of many of their uniforms of these Corps that were amalgamated, disbanded and otherwise lost in time.

I only collect part of the Lancashire RVC family and even within that small group I have lots of blackened badges off Head Dress, Pouches and Pouch Belts, to several Corps.

regards

I agree with your more general point about patchy records, but considered my reply fairly carefully. I wasn’t referring in any way to headdress insignia, as I believe (hope) that I made clear (but I’ll now use the correct term ‘furniture’ to avoid any further possibility of confusion). My response was referring to RVC pouch badges only. There were three types at the height of their popularity. Black with rifle green, brown with grey and white with scarlet. All that I’ve seen or read about, and I accept that there are gaps in the records, have had either, silver or gilt furniture. I can’t think of any that have been black. The main principle seems to have been the badge on the pouch being visible, so presumably black was not considered to show well on black, nor look right on white. The only type I can imagine might have suited black was that in brown leather, which did indeed some times use bronze. However, I think that I have possibly seen black furniture on Royal Irish Constabulary pouch belt appointments. I will need to check. All comments are my own and a personal opinion based on only my own study. It would be great to see some of your blackened pouch belt furniture.

Afternote: having checked, even the RIC had white metal furniture on their pouch belts, as per enclosed images, so my initial assessment stands. I’ll be interested to see if anyone is more successful than me at seeking out any evidence of black furniture on RVC pouch belts. I’m not sure what the answer is to the black residue on the back of Mark’s example, unless it’s dye that’s leeched onto its back off the black leather that it was seated upon, or perhaps it’s just age related tarnishing.