‘Die struck’ & ‘Die cast’ or ‘Hollow die struck’ & ‘Semi-solid die struck’!?

['Ticker' Riley]

Since first becoming interested in cap badge collecting back in 2009 I was always under the impressing that one of the main differences between badges, at least between other ranks’ badges and those of officers, was that the former were ‘die struck’ and the latter ‘die cast’.

However when I mentioned this to a correspondent, who had more than twenty years experience of working for one of the major English badge making firms, he declared that “The use of the term Die Cast to describe how officers badges can be identified is quite wrong”, going on to say “Die casting is a completely different mass production method ... It has not been used for the production of British military badges.”

He then described how other ranks’ cap badges were “Hollow struck”, this being where “The impression of the design on the back of the stamping will be a faithful indentation mirroring the raised impression on the front”, which clearly equates with the usual term for such as being ‘die struck’.

But turning to officers’ badges he talked about “Semi Solid” struck ones, which he described as being where “The impression of the design on the back of the stamping is not fully indented and of a smoother surface with the makers name if applied”, and “Solid struck” badges, where “There is little or no impression of the design on the back of the stamping at all” and how “This will be almost totally flat and smooth with the makers name if applied”

Looking at my Leicesters officers’ badges it seems those that I formerly thought were ‘die cast’ would be more accurately described as being ‘semi-solid die struck’. I do have one badge that might be a ‘solid die struck’ badge, but the only truly ‘cast’ badges I have seem to be what I understand are often called ‘theatre made’ badges, such as those apparently produced in India, which would, I believe, have been ‘sand cast’.

Whilst not wishing to set the ‘cat amongst the pigeons’, I thought I’d share the above with fellow members to see what their thoughts are on the seeming misnomer of ‘die cast’ badges!?

Regards

Martin

[Alex Rice]

This is some interesting info, can you post photos of examples of what you think each type is? Did stuck is obvious but the other 2 maybe not so much.
Cheers,
Alex

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

He then described how other ranks’ cap badges were “Hollow struck”, this being where “The impression of the design on the back of the stamping will be a faithful indentation mirroring the raised impression on the front”, which clearly equates with the usual term for such as being ‘die struck’.

But turning to officers’ badges he talked about “Semi Solid” struck ones, which he described as being where “The impression of the design on the back of the stamping is not fully indented and of a smoother surface with the makers name if applied”, and “Solid struck” badges, where “There is little or no impression of the design on the back of the stamping at all” and how “This will be almost totally flat and smooth with the makers name if applied”

Not 'military' badges but I have British Legion collar badges which fit two of the descriptions.

Photo 1 is from a set (cap badge + 2 collars) belonging to an officer in the short lived British Legion Volunteer Police Force , so can be dated to 1938.

Photo 2 is a post 1946 collar (with member number on a piece of slider) when Gaunt got the contract back to produce British Legion badges. Gaunt brought in a system of 'prefixes' to identify their various badges and their collars have a 'C' prefix before the member number.

.

[magpie]

Wrong terminology is used because people don't know or care how things are made and once a term is/has been used by someone who is supposed to be all knowledgeable in something then it sticks, you're not going to change the way certain leading experts describe officer's badges on or in their website or catalogues, extruded sliders aren't extruded most being made from flat rolled bar non exact size or shape cheaply made material normally with rounded sides and quite often with a ridge/groove lines in on one side or as can be found on some Lambourne badges drawn flat bar with all square sides drawn/pulled through a sizing die.

['Ticker' Riley]

Thank you for the replies gentlemen, and I’m glad to hear that you find this of interest Alex. I think my informant’s point is rather there are only ‘die struck’ badges, but that there is more than one type of these. To try and illustrate what I believe he is saying, I’m attaching a composite image of the backs of two Leicesters badges I have. The one on left is what I take it would be ‘hollow die struck’ with the one on the right being, what I assume, would be ‘semi-solid die struck’. This is what I had thought was ‘die cast’, which, it appears, isn’t correct. As to the two badges you’ve shared Mike, I take it you are thinking your “Photo 1” is a ‘semi-solid die struck’ badge, and your “Photo 2” is the ‘hollow die struck’ one?

Leicesters Backs.jpg

I can’t claim any knowledge of the badge making process myself, as, like most collectors I would imagine, I’ve not worked in the badge manufacturing business. However I was hoping that there might be someone on the Forum who would have such a background, just to confirm my correspondent’s comments and maybe clarify things a little more. One thing I was told was that ‘solid struck’ and ‘semi-solid struck’ badges use a “thicker gauge metal”, which makes sense when considering officers’ badges, and that they “need a heavier gag and a number of blows with annealing between to get the design fully up on the stamping”.

As to trying to change what others use, ‘magpie’, that isn’t my intention, I was merely surprised by the revelation that officers’ badges aren’t ‘die cast’ after all, so thought I’d share this with other Forum members. I know that some do like to use more correct or official descriptions for things, such as ‘vertical shank’ instead of ‘slider’ or ‘loops’ rather than ‘lugs’. At the end of the day it’s down to the individual what terms they use, but from now on I for one will try and be a little more accurate when it comes to referring to officer’s badges. Finally, I do note that on the Forum’s Glossary there are entries for ‘Die Struck’ and ‘Die Cast’, which is fine, even though the latter is apparently not of the relevance I thought it was!

Best regards

Martin

[cbuehler]

There were some actual sand (or whatever the medium was) cast OSD badges made, presumably by provincial makers to supply the local tailors. Additionally, many Scottish officer badges were cast, eg. Gordons and Seaforth, which can only be made by the casting process and cannot be struck due to their three dimensionality.
Although not cap badges, other uniform items were cast, such as horse furniture, sporran cantles etc.

CB

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

As to the two badges you’ve shared Mike, I take it you are thinking your “Photo 1” is a ‘semi-solid die struck’ badge, and your “Photo 2” is the ‘hollow die struck’ one?

I was used to the 'hollow die struck' BL badges , especially the way the "lion head" is attached , but hadn't seen the heavier 'semi-solid die struck' one with it's tangs before.

Any idea if this was specially produced for the BLVPF or if it was simply an early design ?

.

['Ticker' Riley]

That’s very interesting to hear about cast O.S.D. badges CB, being made “by provincial makers to supply the local tailors”. I can’t say that I’ve personally come across this, though I do have some ‘theatre-made’ Leicesters badges (I assume from India), which I believe are sand cast. Looking at these tonight I can see a similarity with some of my Leicesters officers’ badges, which is probably why the latter have been referred to as being ‘die cast’, but the ‘theatre-made’ ones are definitely rougher.

I’d be glad to see examples of these Scottish ‘die cast’ badges that you mention, but all I can do is pass on what my contact told me, and reiterate his assertion that “The use of the term Die Cast to describe how officers badges can be identified is quite wrong ... It has not been used for the production of British military badges”. He also told me that “The only molten metal poured into a die is lead and has nothing to do with die casting. In its 'soft' state lead is poured into a die to take a lead impression. This is purely to check that the design is as required in all its aspects”. With over twenty years experience of working for J. R. Gaunt & Son, ending up in a senior role and then forming his own badge making company, the gentleman concerned seems to know what he’s talking about; though that doesn’t mean other firms might not have done things differently!

As to your badges Mike, and whether the one was “specially produced for the BLVPF or if it was simply an early design”, I’m afraid I have no knowledge of this whatsoever!

Regards

Martin

[Neil s]

Hi martin
Here are some examples of scottish Officer/NCO Badges
Argyll and Sutherland
These two are hallmarked
IMG_20220312_123144.jpgIMG_20220312_122601.jpgIMG_20220312_122542.jpgIMG_20220312_122525.jpg


These two are not and have copper loops so are possible NCOs
IMG_20220312_122309.jpgIMG_20220312_122240.jpgIMG_20220312_122354.jpgIMG_20220312_122330.jpg

[Neil s]

Gordon Highlanders
two silver first hallmarked second not
IMG_20220312_122206.jpgIMG_20220312_122135.jpgIMG_20220312_122115.jpgIMG_20220312_122045.jpg






These have a yellow tinge to them so may be nickle silver the retailers plate is silver and stands out as such
The ivy leaf border of the first from its reverse looks as if it may be struck
IMG_20220312_121921.jpgIMG_20220312_121858.jpgIMG_20220312_121829.jpgIMG_20220312_121755.jpg

[cbuehler]

The Argyll officer and all the Gordons, except the example with the "semi solid die struck" wreath, are classic castings from a mold in the same manner as Indian made badges. Again, officer sporran cantles, plaid brooches, etc. were also made in this manner.

CB

['Ticker' Riley]

Many thanks for posting up all the badge images Neil, for which I am grateful, given I essentially only collect Leicesters badges so am unfamiliar with the examples you’ve shared to the Argyll & Sutherland and Gordon Highlanders. I can see now what you mean CB, about the “three dimensionality” of these badges, particularly the stags’ heads.

As I’ve said before I’ve no personal experience of the badge making industry, but looking at these photos it seems that the first and third of the Argyll & Sutherland badges are what my informant would describe as ‘hollow die struck’, whereas the second and fourth could, perhaps, be the ‘solid die struck’ that he mentions; though I see how you would think these were ‘die cast’, particularly when you look at the back of the last badge.

Turning to the Gordon Highlanders’ badges they look as though they are all a two piece construction, at least, with the wonderfully sculpted stags’ heads being separate from the wreaths, but, as you say CB, with the wreath of the third one being seemingly ‘semi-solid die struck’. Again I wonder if, the wreaths of the other badges could be ‘solid die struck’, thought maybe they are the “classic castings from a mold in the same manner as Indian made badges” that you mention. Perhaps these kind of badges, being made by the “provincial makers” you talk about CB, were indeed ‘die cast’, whereas the comments from my correspondent relate to just the production of the main English badge making firms?

Incidentally, do the hallmarks tell us who made your badges Neil? In any event, thank you again for sharing these images, as this aspect of things is extremely interesting. Mind, with regards to the general point of this thread, in the light of what this chap has told me, from now on I’ll be reviewing how I personally describe my badges, especially my officers’ ones.

Best regards

Martin

[Neil s]

The hollow back A&S is made by Bent & Parker Birmingham 1914
I have a Cameronian of the same construction by this maker
The two solid construction badges I have not yet found the makers but the
A&S is London 1915 and the Gordon Edinburgh 1915
These badges are made by jewelers it is likely because of the small numbers made it is cheaper to cast than make a die

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Neil

Many thanks for the details from the hallmarks, and it’s interesting to know about the Bent & Parker one, as they are my favourite maker, at least as far as Leicestershire Regiment badges are concerned – their tigers have a stockiness about them more reminiscent of a bear than a tiger, but I like them nevertheless!

On the “solid construction badges”, if these were made by jewellers like you believe then you may well be right about them casting these, rather than them being stamped out like a badge manufacturer might do. Anyhow, thank you again for the info. on the makers.

Best regards

Martin

[cbuehler]

Regarding the Gordons 3D badges, I have seen many that have had a semi solid die struck wreath with a cast stag brazed on. Indeed, all are actually two piece badges with the stag attached as this is the only way they could be made.
The same for the Seaforths. Many have die struck or semi solid die struck ciphers and scrolls, but of course the stag is always mold cast as again this is the only way they could be made in a 3D form.
Most Argyll officer badges are cast silver, but some are die struck in sterling silver as the example above, and others silver plated. I have never seen a semi solid die struck example, but they could exist.

CB