63 PLI -copy/genuine

[Khyber]

This is a 63 Palamcottah LI badge currenlty on ebay..

[Khyber]

An almost similar badge was up some 10 days ago

there are some differences, but on the reverse there is a sort of indentation on the crown area where probably the lug was orignally fixed..?? I dont know if Im reading too much into all these but I begin to wonder when these IA badges (which are not supposed to be common) keep turning up and one wonders if someone is stamping them out in a workshop somewhere..
Other common badges that keep coming up are 8 Punjab, 83 WLI, 3rd Madras

another collector friend has long warned me that IA badges are now being faked a lot becasue of demand..which is one reason I've almost stopped collecting...

[Khyber]

Another bright and shiny 83 WLI badge..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144371988...EAAOSw6Z1hinBe


and several others..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/eddiegav/...75.m3561.l2562

[High Wood]

Sunil,

thank you for your informative post. There has been a lot of awful dross on ebay lately and it is indeed killing the hobby. The one good thing is that these sand cast copies are so crude that they are easily spotted and dismissed.

The only sand cast badges that I buy are those of British Regiments known to have been in India and Burma during WW2 and which have a maker's mark from a known maker from Aligarh or some other place where there were known badge manufacturers. I have about three examples in my collection. They are cast to a much higher standard but are still relatively crude.

I genuinely do not believe that the British Indian army would have issued such poor quality badges as those you have illustrated to serving soldiers even in the direst emergency.

There must be 'genuine' bazzaar made badges ordered by a C.Q.M.S. as an unofficial replacement after a bloody skirmish on the North West Frontier, but nowhere in the numbers that we are now seeing.

In Jaisalmer, I visited a curio shop, I still have his card somewhere, that was full of wonderful artefacts, that appeared to be well made and appropriately aged. He didn't have many military items, but after a few visits he said that he could get anything made as he had a network of craftsman who used the old methods. These were not the usual tat for tourists merchants, but craftsmen who could exactly copy and appropriately age items as a one off order.

Where this is a demand for something, someone will reproduce it.

[Khyber]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Sunil,


Where this is a demand for something, someone will reproduce it.

Sadly true, Simon, there's some really dodgy stuff out on ebay and people are buying!

And yes, while there would certainly have been bazaar cast pieces, certainly not in the numbers that have been turning up...caveat emptor!

[Luke H]

Isn’t this the whole problem with ‘bazaar’ cast badges.

They could be genuine or have been made yesterday and buried in a plant pot to age them. The construction methods are practically the same.

Obviously if you encounter a cast badge from a known fake die it is easy to discount, but, if cast from and original or not a ‘known fake’ etc… you very much pays your money and takes your chance.

Whilst researching is a good aid and where I would start it is not a guarantee in itself. I wonder how long it will be until they copy Aligarh etc. marks/badges if they haven’t already?

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Isn’t this the whole problem with ‘bazaar’ cast badges.

They could be genuine or have been made yesterday and buried in a plant pot to age them. The construction methods are practically the same.

Obviously if you encounter a cast badge from a known fake die it is easy to discount, but, if cast from and original or not a ‘known fake’ etc… you very much pays your money and takes your chance.

Whilst researching is a good aid and where I would start it is not a guarantee in itself. I wonder how long it will be until they copy Aligarh etc. marks/badges if they haven’t already?

I entirely agree with the points that you make. Bazaar made sand cast badges are a minefield for collectors.

Here are a few thoughts of mine.

There really should be no need for bazaar made badges under peace time conditions as all regiments should have enough cap badges available in the stores.

In war time conditions, a unit serving overseas may have found it easier to order replacement badges from a local manufacturer rather than wait for months for replacements to arrive from the U.K. There would have been an official order placed with all the appropriate costings all agreed in advance, and probably a minimum order of say, 500 badges.

The King's Regiment example with a maker's mark came with the soldier's medals and paybook. The original owner served in Burma on the first Wingate expedition and the battalion was practically rebuilt and re-equipped once back in India. The spent the rest of the war on home security duty in the Sind province.

Using this methodology, I would expect to see similar maker's marked Indian made badges for other regiments who had served in Burma, particularly those involved in the 1942 retreat, e.g. K.O.Y.L.I. (particularly as they had been stationed in Burma for nearly ten years before the war and would have left most of their non essential stores behind), 7th Hussars, though I believe that they were sent to Italy after Burma, The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Cameronians and of course many of the corps, e.g. The Royal Signals, R.E., R.A., etc. With regard to the Corps, I imagine they would have had access to replacement cap badges from their depots in India.

I would also expect to see Indian made regimental badges for the likes of the Burma Rifles and the Burma Regiment who had to rebuild their battalions in india. I very much doubt that their badges were ordered from a bazaar.

With Indian Regiments, they would almost certainly have an official supplier for their regimental badges, either British or Indian made. Under war time conditions, with the huge expansion of the Indian Army, I imagine that quality standards might have been lowered to meet demand, but the badge must have at least had to have clear definition on the obverse. See the 5th Mahratta Light Infantry cap badge.

With Indian Auxilliary Units, they were pretty much run along the lines of gentleman's clubs and would have had higher quality, probably privately purchased badges from an approved supplier. I very much doubt that they would have worn bazaar made badges.

I am not sure if an Indian soldier had to pay for lost kit, but he may have saved a rupee or two by buying a replacement sandcast badge from the bazaar, rather than the quartermaster's store, but I imagine a poor quality badge would not have been tolerated for long.

Undoubtedly, sand cast shoulder titles can be found, usually with the tombstone type lugs and I believe that many of these are genuine war time examples. See the R.A.S.C. example. I would not expect to see any Victorian or Edwardian cast Indian Army badges or shoulder titles.

I also think that there are genuine sand cast badges made by field units such as R.E.M.E workshops to meet the immediate need for replacement badges during war time conditions, but I would imagine that these would have been replaced with issued badges once the opportunity arose. The South Staffordshire Regiment cap badge may be an example of this, as it has a crudely made slider but I have no provenance for it.

I am not an expert in the dark art of sand casting, but I believe that a very fine grade of sand is used for a clear definition. Bazaar made badges are often made using very rough sand, see the 4th Bombay Grenadier's badge, which I believe is a modern, badly made, copy.

Modern Indian badges appear to be quite crudely cast, see the Security badge, but I believe that this is an economy measure, as it is the power invested in the badge rather than the quality that is important under the circumstances.

My last point, is that India was a major manufacturer of arms, uniforms and equipment during the second world war and would not have need to rely on local bazaars to produce cap badges in great quantities. See the aluminium identity disc as an example of the kind of things that they were manufacturing for the troops.

[cbuehler]

I have collected British Indian Army badges on and off for several decades now, and I cannot speak for cast British Army badges, although I have several with Indian makers marks.
Unfortunately, there is no information as to just how Indian units obtained their badges. I suspect they were often sourced on a regimental basis with local makers.
Most Indian badges seem to have been sand cast from a master badge, usually a quality British made officer's badge as the supplied model. Many will show a makers mark, eg. Gaunt etc., on the reverse, which the was the master badge they were made from. Not all Indian Army officer badges were British make and many officers wore cast badges, although often made of some grade of silver and essentially no different from the Ranks badges. This is particularly the case in WW2 era badges.
I have been fortunate to acquire a good many from the estate of the late Brig. Francis Ingall of the 6th DCO Lancers who lived near here in Santa Rosa California.
From these, it is impossible to judge originality based on quality unfortunately. Many genuine badges are quite well done, but many are relatively crude and that is the way they are.
I would expect genuine badges to show some age and toning however, but even this can be difficult if a badge was not worn and stored in a good environment.
Over the past year or two, there are many badges being offered on ebay from a Pakistani seller which I believe are all recent fakes. They are generally even cruder than the originals and are obviously cast from other cast badges instead of a high quality original specimen. The reverses are not polished flat and show a rough finish not normally seen on older originals. Contrary to what High Wood said, many of the more modern badges of the Indian/Pakistani armies are of superb quality as this Punjab Regiment shows.
So I do agree that there are more fake sand cast badge coming out now and it can be difficult or impossible to be sure of originality, but if one is familiar with them, it can certainly help! Buyer beware as always.

CB
PS, I agree that the 63rd especially and 4th Grenadiers are bad. The 4th in my collection is much better and has a polished finer cut numeral. Additionally, there are many genuine Vic. and Edw. cast badges, mainly for the Ranks Pagri.

PS again. I also think that many of the British Army local "bazaar" cast badges were likely just picked up as souvenirs by whatever battalion was currently stationed at a particular town or city. There were likely many vendors in the cantonments offering the resident battalion such bits and pieces. "Sahib Jee, your badge"

[Khyber]

There are now Indian manufacturers stamping out post 47 badges of fairly good quality..and you can buy them in lots of 25/50/100 much like all the Gurkha badges you see on ebay UK..a simple Google search will show...These guys could just as well reproduce older badges and there are many out there..
The Pakistani seller has graduated from just India/Pakistan to Malay and African badges and shoulder titles as well.wonder who buys all this but I guess somebody will...it's a disaster.

[High Wood]

C.B.,

your 2nd Punjab Regiment cap badge is a splendid example of what high quality a sand cast badge can be if made by a skilled craftsman. It probably helped that it appears to have been cast in aluminium rather than brass. I would have no doubt that a badge of that quality could have been issued.

My main point is that bazaar made sand cast badges should logically play no part in the supply of insignia to British Indian Forces.

Firstly, being essentially a Government department, all equipment would have been ordered through officiallly appointed suppliers with all the necessary approval, costings and inspection. Badges would have been sourced from British or Indian manufacturers and made to a specific pattern and quality and would have been ordered in large quantities.

I also think that many of the large Corps based all over India would have had depots full of stores which could have sent out badges within a week or two to almost anywhere in India just using the postal system or the railways.

I gave a few examples in my earlier post, where certain battalions had to be re-equipped after coming out of Burma, and these badges are known to exist with maker's marks, which would seem to indicate that they were ordered from the manufacturer.

I think that you are right in that bazaar made badges were originally souveniers to be sold in the market, rather than issued, but now are just made to decieve.

It is certainly possible that a Sepoy from Bihar or a Private from Burnley bought a replacement cap badge from a bazaar in order to appear on Parade, but he could probably have got a better one from the quartermaster.

My opinion is that there are now simply too many bazaar quality badges floating around and therefore a very high proportion of them are modern fakes, probably bought as trinkets but sold by the unscrupulous as genuine badges.

[cbuehler]

Yes, too many cast badges coming about now, but I really don't think it is all that hard to detect the bad stuff.
The badge I show is for the modern Punjab Regiment, not the old 2nd PR. The design of the Galley has remained the same, only the 2nd has been removed from the scroll.
Although I do not know for certain, I do not believe that there was such a strict and controlled centralized source for badges and uniform items in the old British Indian Army. I believe it was done on much more of a regimental basis from my studies of the subject. Even British Army battalions stationed in India purchased from the Cantonment vendors for many uniform items such as Pagri flashes, mess waiter badges etc. The old Army Cantonments were like modern military bases in that had many services available, including tailors.

CB

[High Wood]

C.B.,

I certainly take your point about the Indian taylors based on the cantonment, they could knock you up anything in cloth at a moment's notice. I am not sure that they would have had anything to do with metal badge manufacturing though.

H.W.