RN Sennet Hat

[RCN]

I have never seen or handled one of these rare hats -

Can someone tell me if this example is good?

Thanks in advance, RCN Bryan

[Guzzman]

Hi Bryan

The hat looks good to me as it is virtually identical to one I have in my collection - even down to the cloth 'patch' on top. Mine differs from yours in not having any sort of lining. Mine has a leather band around the inside and nothing else. However there are some small marks which suggest that it may have had some sort of lining at some time. Mine did not have a tally in situ when I acquired it. I'm not sure about your tally though. Perhaps someone else could comment about that. But I'm happy with the hat!

Pete

[Guzzman]

Bryan

Have been trying to identify the name on the tally. Appears to be H.M.S. LIBER??. Can you tell me what the name is and I will check the records for to confirm a ship of that name being in service pre-1922 (when the sennet hat went out of use). As your hat has a mark with a King's Crown it would appear to have been manufactured between 1901 and 1922. The tally you have on it is certainly not a standard tally for that period. I know that various decorated tallies exist with flags and/or fancy lettering with the names of ships of that time but I do not believe that they were officially issued by the Royal Navy (both the National Maritime Museum and the Royal Naval Museum agree with me). I believe such tallies to have been worn by children on their sailors hats (sailor suits being very popular for children at the time), cheap souvenirs of naval events or even worn on their straw boaters by members of rowing clubs (I have seen several of these in collections of rowing memorabilia where there is no doubt about where they originated). No-one has shown me any evidence to confirm that these were ever officially issued to mark Fleet Reviews or the Trafalgar Centenary. So please let me know what the name is and I will investigate it. As I said, I do believe the sennet hat to be genuine.

Pete

[RCN]

Pete I thank you very much for your detailed response.

I do not actually have the hat with me as yet, its on its way to me from overseas so when I receive it I will take more detailed photos & post. I dont know what ship is on the cap ribbon but I have written to the person I have purchased it from & asked him to clarify.

I knew the cap ribbon was likely not orriginal to the hat, but that did not bother me that much as I have period ribbons I can replace it with. & I am aware of the many unofficial ribbons of the Victorian/Edwardian period.

But what really concerned me was that star shaped patch on the top of the crown, I have never seen the top of a sennet hat so I did not know that there was to be any design there. I have RPPC's of sailors wearing sennets & none show any design on the crown, so this was of concern to me.

I have att'd a couple of photos below to show this.....
If you feel that it is "kosher' then thats is good enough for me.

The hat has cost me a bit, but it came with good provenance from an old respected collection, but what I dont want is a theatical reproduction that might have been worn by theatre/vaudeville actors of the period.
So you have helped to reassure me somewhat.

Again I appreciate your time to respond in detail, & another request pls -- could you post photos of your sennet hat?

RCN Bryan

[RCN]

Pete another thought -- the crown could be the VRI crown that she used for India after she became Emnpress of India in 1877?

The crown & maker's design never bothered me, it certainly looks period.

RCN Bryan

[Guzzman]

Hello Bryan

I have photos of ratings wearing sennet hats complete with the 'patch' on top. I will sort some out for you.

I will gladly photograph my hat for you and put some pictures on for you. However, I am going away to enjoy what passes for summer here (the rain is warmer than in the winter!) so I will sort that out when I get back. However, I will try to scan a couple of quick pictures of the hats complete with patch later today.

Pete

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Bryan

Have been trying to identify the name on the tally. Appears to be H.M.S. LIBER??. Can you tell me what the name is and I will check the records for to confirm a ship of that name being in service pre-1922 (when the sennet hat went out of use). As your hat has a mark with a King's Crown it would appear to have been manufactured between 1901 and 1922.

The tally you have on it is certainly not a standard tally for that period. So please let me know what the name is and I will investigate it. As I said, I do believe the sennet hat to be genuine.

Pete

Pete the sennet hat ribbon is HMS LIBERTY.

I think this would be the Liberty of either 1850 (A Training Brig that was sold in 1905) or the Destroyer of 1913 & sold in 1921, but possibly not the destroyer as the compass rose design had disappeared by then?

RCN Bryan

[Guzzman]

Hello Bryan

Have returned from my break so here are a few pictures of my sennet hat. I have had this about 20 years now and although it looks very robust in the pictures it is in fact rather fragile. The straw itself is rather darker than it appears in some of the photos and appears as bright as it does because of the flash (despite it being mid-summer it was so dark at midday I had to use the flash to get a decent picture!).

The hat is shown as I purchased it - minus a tally. The person I bought it from said they did remember there being one but that it had simply fallen to pieces. I did put a c1900 tally onto it but, as I said earlier, I have not seen a picture of a sennet hat with a compass rose later than about 1890 so I took it off again!

The interior of the hat is quite worn. The band inside the hat is leather and beneath it I have found traces of fabric which was once probably white. This presumably once covered the interior of the hat.

Lastly, I have included a picture of the compass rose itself. Not such an elegant design as yours but I like it!

I hope the pictures are of some use and interest.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Hello again Bryan

A few final thoughts. Been looking at the pictures I have just put up. They make the crown of the hat look higher than it does in reality - probably due to the camera angle. My photos make it look more like a straw top hat! Sorry - I'm not a very good photographer. The absence of a tally also makes it seem rather high. Once the hat has a tally on it looks more normal! The pictures also don't show how floppy and flimsy the hat actually is.

Despite the presence of the compass rose I'm inclined to think this hat is actually a fairly late hat. I was actually shown a photograph of the sellers ancestor wearing it and I would have said the photo dated from about 1900. Unfortunately I couldn't see the top of the hat in the picture so I couldn't see if there was a compass rose! I couldn't get a copy of the picture either.

Over the years I have attempted to undertake some research into the manufacture of these hats. The centre of straw hat manufacturing in Britain during the 19th century was Luton in Bedfordshire. Until the Second World War the police there even wore straw police helmets during the summer! Substantial government contracts were awarded to the firms in the town including contracts to supply sennet hats to the Royal Navy. An examination of the specifications listed for the hats show that there could be quite a lot of variation as regards minor details of their manufacture. Although the end result was always a Royal Navy sennet hat different manufacturers produced hats with subtle variations. The industry went into decline partly as the result of straw hats going out of fashion after the First World War and partly as a result of straw hats being produced more cheaply in other parts of the Empire, such as India.

RE the tally. As you say there are two ships with the name H.M.S. LIBERTY which would fit into the period of the sennet hat. The first is the training brig built at Pembroke in 1850 and broken up in 1905. Standard gold wire tallies came into use in the 1860s so unless the tally were an older one put on a later hat I do not think the tally relates to her. The second H.M.S. LIBERTY, the destroyer named in 1913, is just far too late for a tally of that style.
Not much help I'm afraid.

Pete