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  #76  
Old 07-02-20, 02:46 AM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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I really hate to stick my neck out but as no one has answered Lazio yet, Here goes. As per LITCHFIELD, this design was used by the RA from c1800. Additionally, used by the HEIC at a later date. The RHA was formed in 1793, (George 111 period) As the earliest known button definitively stating Royal Horse Artillery appears to be of William 1V vintage, I would presume that your “Ball” button would have been worn by an officer of the RA. An officer of the fledgling Horse Artillery as well as any officer of the HIEC at a later date. The only BALL button I have named to the RHA is of early Victorian vintage, 1837-1855. (See my post in British Militia & volunteer buttons) Regards, D.J.
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  #77  
Old 12-02-20, 08:50 AM
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Default Asian artillery button

Here is another artillery button.

My question is simple: is this design known to collectors?

It dates from around 1910. It may have been offered or sold to an Asian state under British control, e.g. Johore or one of the Indian princely states.
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  #78  
Old 12-02-20, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btns View Post
Here is another artillery button.

My question is simple: is this design known to collectors?

It dates from around 1910. It may have been offered or sold to an Asian state under British control, e.g. Johore or one of the Indian princely states.

I will admit to never seeing this button before.

Marc
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  #79  
Old 12-02-20, 03:50 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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I’d like to offer a possible answer. The button may have been for a contingent of Artillery sponsored by a Nizam of an Indian state or territory. This supposition comes from the fact that in my collection I have for example a hat badge based on the RA design used by gunners of H.E.H. The Nizam of Hyderabad. the H.E.H. Being for “His Exalted Highness” Buttons are also to be found bearing titles such as H.H. Nizams Artillery. As a badge of unknown origin, I would suggest you keep it until you have exhausted all avenues of research. Regards, D.J.
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  #80  
Old 12-02-20, 06:04 PM
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Thank you Marc and D.J. for your replies.


Quoting Artynut: "The button may have been for a contingent of Artillery sponsored by a Nizam of an Indian state or territory"

You are right: it was.
To add to my opening question: Did they order them and have they actually been produced and supplied? If they were, then a forum member may recognise them.

It solved a puzzle I had for many years, i.e. unusual general service buttons. I am planning to contribute that information to Rob Miller's thread. (once I have located those buttons).
I am not considering to move it on.
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  #81  
Old 18-02-20, 11:53 AM
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Thank you all for looking at my query. As there are no positive replies I assume the button was were never ordered.
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  #82  
Old 29-03-20, 10:40 AM
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Default Artillery button

Please excuse my resurrecting an old topic but, like everyone else, I've got a lot of time on my hands to conduct research (well, it's something to do while we're all stuck at home).

I have been giving further thought to the button depicting a cannon either side of a foul anchor (see image below).

I still firmly believe this to be the button of a naval Master Gunner and my research has made me even more convinced of this.

The Gunner was one of any rated warship's three "standing" warrant officers - along with the Boatswain and Carpenter. That is to say one of the officers who theoretically remained with a ship throughout it's life. Like the Boatswain and the Carpenter he belonged to neither the Wardroom or the lower deck, but made his own messing arrangements and had his own cabin. The Gunner was , in fact, the senior of the "standing" warrant officers.

However, unlike the Carpenter and Boatswain, the Gunner was examined, appointed by and responsible to the Board of Ordnance rather than the Navy Board or Admiralty.

The Office of Ordnance, created by Henry VIII in 1544, became the Board of Ordnance in 1597. At the time of its founding there was no standing army, and its principal duties were to supply guns, ammunition, stores and equipment to the King's Navy. The Great Master of Ordnance ranked immediately below the Lord High Admiral. In 1863 the Board became a Civil Department of State. The Gunner's responsibilities were considerable. All gunnery stores and supplies had to be minutely accounted for to the Board of Ordnance as opposed to the Navy Board.

In 1807 other warrant officers were granted official buttons. The buttons of Masters had the arms of the Navy Board, a large anchor between two small ones and Pursers those of the Victualling Board, two anchors crossed in saltire. Officers of the transport service wore buttons bearing the insignia of the Transport Office - a crossed anchor and cannon barrel. I believe that it was at this time that Gunners received their distinctive buttons - something they were worthy of as as the senior standing warrant officer and because of their importance to a warship's fighting ability.

The seal of the Board of Ordnance comprised of three vertical cannon below three cannon balls - and this may have posed a problem as not being nautical enough. Especially as it was a design that featured on most of the Army's artillery units buttons at the time. And I don't think that the Admiralty would have looked very kindly upon their Gunners wearing Army buttons! Any selected design would have had to combine both the naval side of the Gunners role and the link to the Board of Ordnance. A foul anchor had been used on naval buttons for many years, so that could represent the Navy. The inclusion of the anchor would not have left space for the Board of Ordnance's seal with it's three vertical guns. So what better compromise than a gun mounted either side of the anchor and resting on ship's timbers?

There are many variations of this button. Many have the guns mounted on naval gun carriages but others have them mounted on land carriages, as featured on the ensign of vessels belonging to the Board of Ordnance. Some omit the ship's timbers completely.

I know that much of this is supposition but I believe it to be very close to what may have happened. As I have said before details of these buttons may be buried amongst the many thousands of naval documents issued by the Admiralty at the time but as yet unrecorded or they may have been simply lost or destroyed. But another possible source of information may lie amongst the documents of the Board of Ordnance, even if they may consist of little more than letters between the Admiralty and the Board of Ordnance arguing over the design or who was responsible for issuing them! It is certainly an area of investigation which I intend to pursue - once we're allowed out of the house again!

I hope that everyone is keeping well and taking care of themselves.

Pete

Last edited by Guzzman; 29-03-20 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Spelling mistake
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  #83  
Old 29-03-20, 10:55 AM
Hawthorn Hawthorn is online now
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Pete,

A very well reasoned and informative post, many thanks for taking the time to write this.

Regards Simon.
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