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  #1  
Old 08-03-19, 12:26 PM
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Default Forum Dealers/Sales

Opinion seems to be divided on the following, but the subject certainly raises blood pressure in some quarters…

I have read a couple of threads recently on the subject of dealers selling on the forum. It seems some members feel that there are certain member-dealers who contribute virtually nothing to the forum other than to use it as a platform from which to make money. Other posts in this vein express dissatisfaction at posts and albums set up solely for the purpose of promoting sales.

A few counterpoints to these views have been to the effect that:

1) some members find the listings of interest
2) the listings aid the broadening of understanding and therefore possibly add to the overall knowledge of the collecting fraternity
3) sales albums are potential reference guides
4) prior permission for these activities has been obtained from 'them upstairs' rendering the practice kosher

So do member-dealers provide the forum with more than they gain, or are they being parasitic and offering little/nothing in return? Do the rewards they reap outweigh what they claim to be offering, and is the forum a better or worse place for this kind of activity?

As we all know, one of the forum rules on sales states:

'Advertising and sales outside of the Classified Ads section or the designated Fairs, Sales, Auctions and Dealer Recommendations sub-forum, are not permitted. A ‘signature’ at the bottom of your post is permitted which can be a link to your business.'

Does failing to adhere strictly to this rule matter? If so, why, and if not, why have it?

Please note: I am aware this subject is potentially inflammatory, though I would like to stress it is not my intention to provoke any such reaction. For obvious reasons this issue only ever seems to be raised within sales threads, so I thought it might be beneficial for all concerned, to attempt to discuss it in its own, separate thread.

Regards,

JT
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  #2  
Old 08-03-19, 01:15 PM
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It does make sense that dealers do advertise here on the Forum i suppose. We are all looking for that one badge we haven't got yet. But it is annoying when people ask how much a badge is, only to sell it elsewhere. However i do believe if a dealer does sell fakes ( knowingly ) they shouldn't be allowed on the Forum. And yes anyone can make mistakes.....
Andy
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  #3  
Old 08-03-19, 01:30 PM
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I have the website Grandads-kitbag, And I am fortunate the moderators allow me a direct link which I am extremely grateful.

I do not offer very high end insignia as I tend to keep it and yes I freely admit I have on many an occasion had to seek help on here for identification of unknown insignia that I have located, how ever I have 2 golden rules :



1, always offer the badge to a forum member first usually the one persons who contacted me first to identify the badge.

2, If I list a badge for sale on the forum and my website I always discount it to forum members.


Infact I strenuously would recommend the moderators actively encourage dealers to join on here as its a great way of collectors to keep an ` eye` on us and flag up any inconsistencies in dealers stock ....

It shows your upfront and nothing to hide - just my thoughts .
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  #4  
Old 08-03-19, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMO View Post
I have the website Grandads-kitbag, And I am fortunate the moderators allow me a direct link which I am extremely grateful.

I do not offer very high end insignia as I tend to keep it and yes I freely admit I have on many an occasion had to seek help on here for identification of unknown insignia that I have located, how ever I have 2 golden rules :



1, always offer the badge to a forum member first usually the one persons who contacted me first to identify the badge.

2, If I list a badge for sale on the forum and my website I always discount it to forum members.


Infact I strenuously would recommend the moderators actively encourage dealers to join on here as its a great way of collectors to keep an ` eye` on us and flag up any inconsistencies in dealers stock ....

It shows your upfront and nothing to hide - just my thoughts .

Hello Michael,

I think your policy of offering items to forum members first is a very courteous gesture. I have read posts in the past where it has been suggested those seeking appraisals for sale items should be obliged to make such offers here, though it is of course not set in forum legislature, and not something I agree should be obligatory (just my personal view).

Encouraging dealers to become members may not necessarily be as benign a suggestion as one might think. Though I maintain the right to withhold the the person's name, I once heard a well known and respected dealer say at a badge fair that he considered members of this forum all to be pr*ts, but that he'd still take our money.

It goes without saying that this should under no circumstances be considered indicative of all dealers' attitudes. The relationship between collectors and dealers is reciprocal and (hopefully) mutually beneficial.

JT
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  #5  
Old 08-03-19, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
It does make sense that dealers do advertise here on the Forum i suppose. We are all looking for that one badge we haven't got yet. But it is annoying when people ask how much a badge is, only to sell it elsewhere. However i do believe if a dealer does sell fakes ( knowingly ) they shouldn't be allowed on the Forum. And yes anyone can make mistakes.....
Andy
Agreed.
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  #6  
Old 08-03-19, 02:13 PM
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Hi Nemo, just had a look at your website. You must be happy as I found nearly everything was sold or reserved.

Jerry
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMO View Post
I have the website Grandads-kitbag, And I am fortunate the moderators allow me a direct link which I am extremely grateful.

I do not offer very high end insignia as I tend to keep it and yes I freely admit I have on many an occasion had to seek help on here for identification of unknown insignia that I have located, how ever I have 2 golden rules :



1, always offer the badge to a forum member first usually the one persons who contacted me first to identify the badge.

2, If I list a badge for sale on the forum and my website I always discount it to forum members.


Infact I strenuously would recommend the moderators actively encourage dealers to join on here as its a great way of collectors to keep an ` eye` on us and flag up any inconsistencies in dealers stock ....

It shows your upfront and nothing to hide - just my thoughts .
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  #7  
Old 08-03-19, 02:23 PM
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I expressed an opinion, partly influenced by being a member of many forums where certain members only visit to get their items id'd/vetted before listing them on ebay and do not otherwise, or almost never contribute. In the case of Robin, he seems to me to only ever post to advertise his next online sale and at least is not asking for the above, prior to doing so.

I know it is frowned upon when people join just to get id/vetting before selling elsewhere and perhaps if the member in question listed items for sale here, then that would be another matter and also as a collector community, I like to see members contribute with knowledge where they can and I am certain Robin has plenty he could offer here.

I have no influence on how this forum operates and would not wish to and if the owners and/or membership here are happy for such to take place then that is fine. I am happy to abide with what is within the forum rules.

As always it is merely my opinion.
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Jerry
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  #8  
Old 08-03-19, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engr9266 View Post
Hi Nemo, just had a look at your website. You must be happy as I found nearly everything was sold or reserved.

Jerry

HI Jerry , many thanks to be fair I have been neglecting it of late , I need to have a massive clear out of sold items , please by all means contact me with a wants list - im at junk /antique markets 5 mornings a week so you never know what may surface an a `quick sixpence is better than a slow shilling `
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  #9  
Old 08-03-19, 02:37 PM
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Is robin and his auction any different to MCC and his fairs?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...archid=6306238

He profits from the entry tickets and stalls out, (I assume) does he not? He must have knowledge but he doesn't post it.

Not an attack on Mark, I have no problem with him advertising his fairs. Just using him to illustrate a point.

Any finger pointing seems to be pointed at only a select few.

Also, there have been at least 4 dealers banned from the forum, to my knowledge. JDR, Andy Plewa, David Douglas and Peter Taylor.
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Last edited by Phil2M; 13-03-19 at 12:27 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-03-19, 02:53 PM
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Default Selling on the forum

JT,
I see no harm in it. I'm a collector who sells stuff (or trades) to supplement my hobby.
If I acquire something and intend to move it on, and it's scarce or interesting I'll put photos up whilst I have the right to do so.
Once it's sold I'd never post the photo without the new owners permission.
Indeed, one of my albums is based on items I had for sale, and have left on there for reference.
I've often thought of deleting it.
I for one see no harm.
But that's just my opinion.
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  #11  
Old 08-03-19, 03:02 PM
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I believe this is a Forum for collectors and as such should not promote the Business activities of Militaria Dealers. We often recommend honest dealers to new members and thats a good thing.

However many militaria dealers are collectors as well and should be welcomed on here in that capacity and could and do add a lot of knowledge about badges.

Unfortunately the boundaries often get blurred and their 'dealer' head becomes the main contributor rather than their 'collector' head.

I personally know that every two weeks Robin updates his website with new badges and so does every other serious collector by now so I dont really see the need to keep posting the fact on here which I understand has annoyed some members.

Those members here who have websites are able to provide links in their posts and that in my book is sufficient advertising and see no need to do any more than that. Doing so doesnt annoy me but I understand others views that it is a little unnecessary as, again, serious collectors will be checking dealers websites daily any way.

I think the advertisement of Militaria Fairs is a good thing and keeps us all updated. I would like to see a new section that includes ALL militaria fairs dates and any new websites. That would assist us and the seller.

regards
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  #12  
Old 08-03-19, 03:19 PM
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Well why not allow the dealers who wish to promote their sites or upcoming sales, to do so, but only in the sales and fairs part of the forum?
Would that not placate those who are somewhat annoyed at such promoting?
I do have to say that i classify myself as a serious collector, but only wish i had the luxury of time to trawl through dealer sites and auction sites.
Regards
Jon
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  #13  
Old 08-03-19, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBBOND View Post
I expressed an opinion, partly influenced by being a member of many forums where certain members only visit to get their items id'd/vetted before listing them on ebay and do not otherwise, or almost never contribute. In the case of Robin, he seems to me to only ever post to advertise his next online sale and at least is not asking for the above, prior to doing so.

I know it is frowned upon when people join just to get id/vetting before selling elsewhere and perhaps if the member in question listed items for sale here, then that would be another matter and also as a collector community, I like to see members contribute with knowledge where they can and I am certain Robin has plenty he could offer here.

I have no influence on how this forum operates and would not wish to and if the owners and/or membership here are happy for such to take place then that is fine. I am happy to abide with what is within the forum rules.

As always it is merely my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JON188 View Post
JT,
I see no harm in it. I'm a collector who sells stuff (or trades) to supplement my hobby.
If I acquire something and intend to move it on, and it's scarce or interesting I'll put photos up whilst I have the right to do so.
Once it's sold I'd never post the photo without the new owners permission.
Indeed, one of my albums is based on items I had for sale, and have left on there for reference.
I've often thought of deleting it.
I for one see no harm.
But that's just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
I believe this is a Forum for collectors and as such should not promote the Business activities of Militaria Dealers. We often recommend honest dealers to new members and thats a good thing.

However many militaria dealers are collectors as well and should be welcomed on here in that capacity and could and do add a lot of knowledge about badges.

Unfortunately the boundaries often get blurred and their 'dealer' head becomes the main contributor rather than their 'collector' head.

I personally know that every two weeks Robin updates his website with new badges and so does every other serious collector by now so I dont really see the need to keep posting the fact on here which I understand has annoyed some members.

Those members here who have websites are able to provide links in their posts and that in my book is sufficient advertising and see no need to do any more than that. Doing so doesnt annoy me but I understand others views that it is a little unnecessary as, again, serious collectors will be checking dealers websites daily any way.

I think the advertisement of Militaria Fairs is a good thing and keeps us all updated. I would like to see a new section that includes ALL militaria fairs dates and any new websites. That would assist us and the seller.

regards




Jerry, Jon, Simon,

Thanks for your thoughts, gents.

Some members will recall some years ago the emergence of a seller who joined the forum purely to harvest members' knowledge, expertise and experience. It got a lot of people's backs up and ultimately led to the policy of having to make a declaration of intention to sell, when seeking appraisals for the purposes of selling.

Eventually the person in question realised he should perhaps atone as best he could for initially attempting to take the money and run, deciding to leave a legacy in the form of albums depicting the badges he'd sold following members' appraisals. Whether or not this was a fair exchange is open to debate.

My point is really about the relationship between forum sellers and buyers. I assume most will consider mutual-respect to be the order of the day.

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 09-03-19 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Typo correction
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  #14  
Old 08-03-19, 03:43 PM
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I have had the occasional badge identified on this forum with a promise to offer it for sale.
However, the forum requires a set asking price.
Each time I have asked for a fair estimate, but no one bothers to respond.
They have ended up in a box and probably will be sold on e-bay.
I'll let the market decide.

Specialists and dealers are the only people able to sell badges on the forum.
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  #15  
Old 08-03-19, 04:04 PM
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JT,

As always you’ve raised excellent points for discussion and set them out in a beautifully structured way.

I’ve had some really wonderful badges at good prices from members, be they full or part-time dealers, collectors supplementing their income, disposing of spares or friends who kindly gift badges (thanks again JT). I’d hate that to stop. Think we all agree getting something we’re after is often difficult so if the forum offers the potential of something popping up I’m all for it.

For me at least the question ‘what’s our the definition of a dealer?’ is a relevant one. A lot of collectors are dealers and vice versa. Clearly if it’s you’re bread & butter and how you make a living then 100% = dealer. But there seems to be a growing number of regular ‘casual’ sellers who buy a few badges to sell on the side, nothing wrong with that but at that point IMO it starts descending into a greyscale spectrum.

I’m always happy for reference albums to be up, they can be a useful tool when deciding on a badge. As for advertising websites/auctions, it doesn’t bother me... they’re like adverts on the tube.

I take Andy’s point re asking about a badge only to sell it elsewhere. However there’s a certain dichotomy to the situation, we all (myself included) are often the first to criticise when a dealer misdescribes an item - through ignorance or otherwise. Part of me feels like they’re damed if they do ask and sell, damed if they don’t and get it wrong. We can’t have it both ways.

As for bans, if you’re a member actively and knowingly selling fakes as originals you should be banned as that’s fraud. However I do realise the futility of bans, there’s nothing to stop a banned member creating another email address and BBF account.

Personally I think there’s a good peer review system and community spirit on here amongst collectors. Dealers/sellers have been challenged by members when selling fakes or spurious items and action taken. Members actively warn other members of fakes etc. too. So I think our self-policing model, for want of a better phrase, whilst not perfect is mostly good and works.

All just my opinion of course.

Cheers,

Luke
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