sweat holes - dots or slots

[BILL DUGGAN]

In a recent discussion about a Northamtonshire Regiment badge a member, Simon (Longstaff) pointed out a difference in sweat holes.

Some badges have small (drilled ?) holes, which I will call, for the purpose of this posting, 'dots' and some have 'elongated' sweat holes, which I will call 'slots'.

I would imagine that at some stage in the production run of the badge, which was probable sporadic, over many years. The "production team" who probably had a bowler hat and a fine pocket watch in his broad waistcoat pocket, discovered the need to change the sweat holes from dots to slots. (you can take metal off but you can't put it back on)

Perhaps too much money was being spent on twist drills etc., when the holes could be punched out as the voids (if any) in the badge were being punched out.

Of course, this gives rise to the idea that 'dots' are the older of the two types of sweat holes. As pointed out above you can take metal away but you can't put it back on.

I can imagine the badges were monotinously stamped/pressed out by physically fit men on fly presses and the assembly and soldering would be carried out by 'fine fingered' young (good eye-sighted) women.

All with Midlands dialects ? but I'll leave that to your imagination. I've done my bit.

Bill

[wright241]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

In a recent discussion about a Northamtonshire Regiment badge a member, Simon (Longstaff) pointed out a difference in sweat holes.

Some badges have small (drilled ?) holes, which I will call, for the purpose of this posting, 'dots' and some have 'elongated' sweat holes, which I will call 'slots'.

I would imagine that at some stage in the production run of the badge, which was probable sporadic, over many years. The "production team" who probably had a bowler hat and a fine pocket watch in his broad waistcoat pocket, discovered the need to change the sweat holes from dots to slots. (you can take metal off but you can't put it back on)

Perhaps too much money was being spent on twist drills etc., when the holes could be punched out as the voids (if any) in the badge were being punched out.

Of course, this gives rise to the idea that 'dots' are the older of the two types of sweat holes. As pointed out above you can take metal away but you can't put it back on.

I can imagine the badges were monotinously stamped/pressed out by physically fit men on fly presses and the assembly and soldering would be carried out by 'fine fingered' young (good eye-sighted) women.

All with Midlands dialects ? but I'll leave that to your imagination. I've done my bit.

Bill

Bill, Just to add a comment about 'round' holes. I have seen quite a few badges with what dealers have described as having "round sweat holes", however, the badge itself - on closer inspection - has itself turned out to be a fake. David

[BILL DUGGAN]

Am I to infer from this response, David, that ALL badges with small round sweat holes are fake/restrikes ?

If this is so, I believe you are quite wrong, David.

This is exactly the type of irresponsible posting that I'm trying to campaign against on this website.

Statements are being made without any paperwork back-up or thought or knowledge of production line set-ups and engineering proceedures in badge making.

Most of these badges were made over a hundred years ago and all the paperwork is now deep in dusty archives.

Therefore little can be proved or disproved. It's just 'restrike paranoia' running riot.

Most dealers, I imagine, will tell you your badge is fake for obvious reasons. Of course all theirs are all the genuine stuff.

[davec2]

Round vent holes are not necessarily a bad sign, R.Sussex, E.Surrey etc, etc and when I was metal polishing in the early 1960's before I changed tack and became a fabricator/welder, hand presses and fly-presses were mainly operated by women.

The heavier overhead stamp presses were all man powered, I did see the progression from fly-press to automated machine presses and again, these were operated by women and so was all the finer finishing of said badges.

Just my observations from one company I worked for way back in time ??

Dave.

[LONGSHANKS]

I think Bill to take what I said out of context isn't really fair. (looks like you'd have a good career as a politicall speach writer.... )

But I think it's best to read it as a complete statement.

I quote -
I tend to agree, the detail that makes it most questionable is the sweat holes. No doubt, as I wouldn't doubt Alan's comment; the use of some badge design's beyond their end date was known. To date he hasn't advised me wrong.

But I do agree also, no sense in ditching it to the duff box just yet. You never know what come's along.

My other comment would be the softness of the striking to the rear, not as sharp as this one. This has the oblong sweats. It has what i would consider the sharpness required of the period of manufacture when British industry prided itself in it's quality. Needs some loving care of the lugs though....

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=50724

Just my opinion

Many regards

Simon.


As you can see, I said the most questionable detail was the sweat holes but also coupled with the spongey rear detail. One has to review the badge on whole; not I would agree with you solely on the sweats. And as I said, don't ditch it too quickly, as you never know.

Regards and as always just my opinion.

Simon.
P.S. Said truly with Birmingham accent, born and bread Brummy here....in fact my grandmother was one of the swing press operators you mentioned on the other thread.....

[davec2]

Bill,

I have written my post while you were posting you second remarks, calling David irresponsible when stating a known fact is a little harsh and very confrontational, why ?

He mentions that he has seen quite a few badges, that doesn't mean all as you state and everyone knows that some ' fakers ' are now drilling small holes in the back of their copies as a means of trying to indicate vent holes.

You are compaining against irresponsibility on this forum, perhaps you should also be less personal, in my opinion of course.

Dave.

[3748 Hussar]

Hi All ,

I concur some members of the forum are quick to jump feet first into the fire of what's right and what's wrong.

Bill is Correct in what he is stating" (Statements are being made without any paperwork back-up or thought or knowledge of production line set-ups and engineering proceedures in badge making)
Most of these badges were made over a hundred years ago and all the paperwork is now deep in dusty archives.

David is also correct in what he is saying ( Just to add a comment about 'round' holes. I have seen quite a few badges with what dealers have described as having "round sweat holes", however, the badge itself - on closer inspection - has itself turned out to be a fake. David.

Note : The "Quite a few" !!!!!

Also in the time that have been collecting I have come across a number of fakes with round holes and Rectangular sweat holes

Regards

3748 Hussar

[BILL DUGGAN]

Thank you for the balanced responses and observations.

Without wanting to provoke them that come crashing through the trees with their knuckles dragging along the ground......common sense seems to be prevailing, at last.

Bill.

[John Mulcahy]

I see no evidence (with the brazed bi-metal badges of the regiments that interest me) to support the speculation that circular sweat holes were used earlier than oblong or oval ones.

Generally speaking, for other ranks badges, I only see circular holes on RDF & 4th DG cap badges on badges with shortened sliders (making them most likely post 1906), by contrast the earlier c. 1881/82 collar badges and c. 1895/96 FSC cap badges made to replace the collar badges previousley worn on this item , generally have oblong/oval sweat holes.

Officers items , particularly undress collar badges are quite a different matter.

I see nothing irresponsible about David's comments, in fact I see it as quite the opposite.

John

[KLR]

Firstly, I wouldn't trust a badge where there is physical evidence that the round 'sweat hole' was drilled. I'm sure they were all stamped.
There are certainly genuine circular and rectangular holes - sometimes both on the same badge. They both vary in size and I think I can distinguish different makers ones on various badges of the KLR.
As for the statement that
'Most of these badges were made over a hundred years ago and all the paperwork is now deep in dusty archives.'
I would indeed be very grateful to find any documentary reference to the actual process of swat holes. Actually I spend a lot of time in 'dusty archives' not only for my 9 to 5 work but also when I have the time to do badge research. I have looked through various badge makers archives in various repositories up and down the country but have not (yet) seen much about the manufacturing processes in detail. however, I know of certain archives that I have not yet visited. have therre are still some archives that

[JimD]

Bill

I would just like to see your "hard evidence" in favour of round sweat holes, which curiously seem to have become prevent in the last 10 years!

Cheers
Jim

[grumpy]

as a relative newcomer to our hobby [mania?, obsession?] I have a simple question.

At what sort of price, in your opinions, does faking/ restriking etc become worth-while, given the effort/ materials/tools/labour involved?

£10

£20

£30?

or what?

My opinion, for what little it is worth, is that a badge that might change hands at £10, unless a howling fake, ill-stamped, ill-cast, light-weight, wrong colour, re-slidered ..... is probably, whereas not highly sought-after, genuine.

This opinion is based, of course, on the cost/benefit ratio that I would apply to faking!

[LONGSHANKS]

I always thought it would be nice to have a section here like the makers marks, that out and out fakes are archived. At least some of what I hearing of now as Alan just said of the King's that have the sweats etc. Posted images would be at the discretion of the super moderator team though and approved by consensus by some of the members who's opinion I appreciate greatly in my questions etc.

I imagine this has been suggested before, but it would be a nice feature; and as always IMO.



Simon

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

as a relative newcomer to our hobby [mania?, obsession?] I have a simple question.

At what sort of price, in your opinions, does faking/ restriking etc become worth-while, given the effort/ materials/tools/labour involved?

£10

£20

£30?

or what?

My opinion, for what little it is worth, is that a badge that might change hands at £10, unless a howling fake, ill-stamped, ill-cast, light-weight, wrong colour, re-slidered ..... is probably, whereas not highly sought-after, genuine.

This opinion is based, of course, on the cost/benefit ratio that I would apply to faking!

I have no knowledge of the financial metrics of reproduction badge suppliers but based on the price of reproduction badges on sites such as the two attached it appears to be worthwhile at under GBP 10.

http://www.britishbadge.co.uk/

http://www.inniskillingsmuseum.com/shop/badges


John

[BILL DUGGAN]

Did I mention 'knuckles' too soon ?

I don't know why members of this website forum don't go to militaria fairs at Yate, Farnham or Aldershot or somewhere and when the hall is full, stand in the doorway and shout (or use a megaphone) "Most of the badges on sale at this fair are fake restrikes!!!!!!."

I wonder what the reaction of everybody in the hall would be ?

I wonder if they would all b****r off back home and take their money with them.

Bill