Dies, life expectancy?

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by KLR

An important aspect of numismatics (part of my day job) is die linking and I am beginning to see patterns in KLR badges - as clearly is Griff for his badges.

Anyway, I was going to mention the range of production that the War Office ordered in April 1916. A cap badge tender went out - presumably to many different manufacturers - for varying amounts between 2,000 (1st Life Guards) to 200,000 (Royal Artillery - ASC were only 100,000 !). Presumably manufacturers - if they didn't join forces - had to be able to cater for such diverse figures ?

Julian

That would certainly explain the diverse variety of "Makers" in War time...... it would be reasonable to say that in peace time production settled down to the normal factory names?

[KLR]

Exactly, regretably I've never come across tender award details, ie who made how many of what item. Happily, such details survive for the period 1939-46, giving dates, numbers and manufacturers. I'm afraid though I've only copied out all the King's Regt details rather than tabulate all volumes of these records !!

I've not been able to find any statistics for officer's badge production figures, though there are a couple of leads that I ought to chase up ! Like you, I've got a rough figure of how many dies per pattern - though confused by wartime or theatre made ones.

[Sonofacqms]

Neibelungen,

You certainly seem to know what this is all about, brilliant answers to a complex question.

With 20,00 as a possible figure for a run of cap badges and bearing in mind how many were issued to a soldier, I would think at least two per person, maybe more (Could anyone say for sure) there is still room for many variations, albeit dies that were repaired.

Thanks for your input chaps.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

One more fore Neibelungen

The Officers badges appear to be the first produced from new dies..... and in some cases second and third editions but with new male dies at later dates. For a particular badge .... I have a hallmark 1918, 1931 & 32 and I am positive that a 1898 or 1900 exists .... but not seen yet.

The early Other Ranks badges have "hobbed" lettering (see below) seen in the reverse..... but that appears to not be so pronounced in later production (die wear?)

[Phillip Herring]

"Life expectancy for a die."

Now that's funny!

Phil

[btns]

Thank you Neibelungen for your nice summary.
I guess you will have no difficulty recognising this tool.

[Sonofacqms]

Phil,

You are the first to pick up on this, when I first typed it, it was slightly "tongue in cheek" but with a serious meaning, I was hoping to point out to forum members just what a complex business badge collecting can be.

Rob

[Neibelungen]

Hobbing (or now commonly termed hubbing) is the process of pressing a hardened male, the hob or hub, into a soft counterblock in order to produce a reverse die from it. (you can also do the reverse with the female)
Typically it uses pressure in the 300 to 1,000 ton range, but used to be done with huge drop hammers (as per the picture earlier) and multiple strikes.

It like pushing a pattern into clay, letting it go hard and then pushing soft clay into the cavity. You get identical repeats from one to the other so you only have to make one die (hob) by hand and you can make multiple dies off of that.

Modern coining might make 1 master hub, 20 secondary masters hubs off that, and 20 working dies off each secondary. (you've only made 1 die by hand and now have 400 dies, but only ever used the original master once. Potentially each working end die could make 20,000 coins each. About 8 million coins.
If you add in a tertiary hub step (not uncommon) and only use the master hub once you produce 160 million coins.. about the production run of a £1 coin design.

The same terminology was applied when a small punch is used just for a particular element, for example the stars between words in a garter badge, and you can use the same process to make reverse letter punches from positive ones .

The big difference between a drop hammer and a fly-press/hydraulic press is that the latter squeezes the metal into shape relatively slowly, while the former is a very sudden shock deforming force. It's harder on the dies, but seems to allow the metal to flow better and you often get a crisper result. But they can bounce too and the object can shift, so you can get double strikes, or clashing where a ghost impression might be created off centre in the die

Firmin's drop hammer is mounted on a huge granite bed, but that still needs to be replaced every dozen or so years from the shock force travelling through it.

[Mercian]

Brilliant reply Neibelungen, this has been a very informative post, which I have found very interesting. I think it has had very good input from all concerned.

[Neibelungen]

It's interesting when you visit or see images and reference to factory materials that the blanking and piercing dies that go with a die set almost never appear or are mentioned.
Partly I'd expect because they are obscure items and also because of the wear rates on them and because they only finish the item rather than make it.

However the survival rate it terrible even compared to badge dies (though once separated you would have no idea what they are for) and aren't particularly interesting to preserve.

Even in complete museum factories, blanking dies are uncommon but not surprising on small level production runs, but it does leave a conclusion that many badges are hand pierced and it must have been a considerable part of the production process.
From records most manufacturers had huge numbers of female employees who's sole job was cutting these out day in and day out and soldering the mountings on the back.

Have any collectors with multiple copies of the same die strike pattern observed different cutting patterns or changes to piercing patterns consistent with blanking die breakages, replacement etc. ?

[GriffMJ]

Something I am looking at

I am guessing that in the early days the badge was stamped from a sheet and then punched out with a cutter punch?

It does appear, later in the badge in the record, that a pre formed blank is stamped?

[Rob Miller]

I assume this die has been used for cutting the voids in a badge.

There is a big chunk missing next to the larger hole which probably shouldn't be there.

Interestingly the holes on the back are larger than on the front so they must taper to allow the removed sections to fall through.

I suppose that old worn out or damaged dies could be converted for this task?

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

That looks like it gave up the ghost.... they look more like stress fractures.

[Rob Miller]

This set is interesting, would you cut the outer shape first or press the design?

Rob

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kepi-Badge...item2a24df20df

[Keith Blakeman]

I was always under the impression (no pun intended folks) that the voids and the outline of the badge were cut out with a piercing saw rather than be stamped. I have a Royal West Kent badge, all be it brass rather than nickel so possibly a trial piece, as a planchet with numerous holes drilled through the horses rear legs, under the forelegs, the little triangles between the two scrolls, all around the outline, etc.