WW1 Royal Marine Artillery?

[bess55]

I'm no expert and there are those with way more knowledge than I, but for a badge well over 100 years old, it tends to suggest it I'm afraid mate.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Irv

Thanks!
Just checked and all the E-W lugged badges have Splayed feet. And number 8 on the other thread I started (N-S) lugged badge has.
Is this a definite text to say ‘Fake’?

There are feet and then there are ‘feet’.

Most loops have a slight foot but importantly its width will match that of the wire used. A splayed or footed loop where it is flattened out and wider (dish shape) is the sign of a modern loop. There are also some tell tale signs with the loop shaft itself and its shape related to how the wire has been drawn.

Some size 12s in this thread to show what I mean…
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...9&postcount=30

All your E-W looped badges match the loops in the link albeit perhaps not as pronounced but they are nonetheless from the same post 1970s stable.

[Irv]

I see. What a minefield 😳
I’ve seen a lot of picture of dodgy one have you any of the good one?
Are you saying that all (in general) E-W RMA badges are fake?

Regards
Irv

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Irv

I see. What a minefield ��

Are you saying that all (in general) E-W RMA badges are fake?

Regards
Irv

Yes. I’ve never seen an E-W looped RMA I’d regard as genuine.

The RMA isn’t a passion of mine so I’ve not looked as extensively as others will have but nonetheless I’ve still seen a lot of badges yet never an E-W looped one I’d buy.

[1664]

Originally Posted by Irv

Original badge but not cap badge, collar badge. Lugs are east/west on cap badge and north/south on collar badge.
Irv

This is incorrect.

[1664]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Yes. I’ve never seen an E-W looped RMA I’d regard as genuine.

The RMA isn’t a passion of mine so I’m not looked as extensively as others will have but nonetheless I’ve still seen a lot of badges but never an E-W looped one I’d buy.

Agree. All the east and west versions I have handled I would not have in my collection.

[Irv]

Hi 1664,
I posted a number of original period pictures which show the globe on this badge go down over the material on the front of a brodrick cap. If the lugs are N-S how is that done? I have two RMA brodrick caps and neither have holes punched into that area??
I think this was the conundrum that I just couldn’t work out using a badge that had N-S lugs?
Any ideas?

Regards
Irv

[1664]

Originally Posted by Irv

Hi 1664,
I posted a number of original period pictures which show the globe on this badge go down over the material on the front of a brodrick cap. If the lugs are N-S how is that done? I have two RMA brodrick caps and neither have holes punched into that area??
I think this was the conundrum that I just couldn’t work out using a badge that had N-S lugs?
Any ideas?

Regards
Irv

The south lug is quite a way above the bottom of the badge, this allows it to sit over the fabric of the cap, whilst being attached to the peak. If you look at the images you and others have posted you will see that on some the fabric band of the cap is often squashed. The badge was also worn on other caps, I’ve handled several brodricks and other period RMA caps and never seen a EW cap badge in use.

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by Irv

Cheers Alex. Any particular reason? We are all here to learn.

Hi Irv
Sorry again, , this must be very disappointing for you. The main thing when I first looked at the pics was the very uniform poor definition of the rear of the badges. After looking closely and seeing some footed lugs the alarm bells really went off. They aren't a definitive reason but all the badges appear to be from the same die with that poor definition.
Cheers,
Alex

[1664]

Irv,
If you Google rm badges it should take you to Mark Philips website, look in the section on RM Documents for “clothing price lists” you get what is effectively a list of every badge worn by the Corps in that period. The entry for grenades shows gilt and gilding metal, there is no distinction for use as either collar badge or cap badge. I’ve often heard collectors talk about longer lugs but I’ve never found any evidence in the regulations for this in the Corps or on surviving uniforms and caps. It also makes it harder to accept that there might be a special cap badge with EW lugs for Brodricks.
Yours
John

[Irv]

Closer images.

[1664]

Irv,
Some images from ‘Personal Distinctions’, (with permission of the copyright holder). The cap is the best one in the collection at the Royal Marines Museum. The two others show different positions of the grenade and the final one is of the 1922 pattern badge, which must have been fitted through the fabric of the cap rather than onto the peak. The more I researched ‘PD’ the more I concluded that uniform isn’t uniform, it takes time for practise to catch up with regulations and the first regulations I could find for the height of cap badges in the Corps was post 1923.
Yours
John

[Irv]

The only picture that shows the badge above the front panel is your one of the cap from RM museum. All others period photos show the bomb below. The two RMA caps I have do not have holes in this front panel. I have put the N-S badges against original photos to show where the lug is in relation to the front panel.
The material on the original photos is not bunched up as can be seen by following the line of the red pipping which shows up nicely in Black and white photos????

Regards
Irv

[Irv]

With a N-S lugged badge this is as low as I can get it.

[Irv]

Just had a thought. I am not putting this info/pictures out there because I believe these E-W badges are right. I’m doing it because something is not right. The pictures don’t lie. I’m just looking for an understanding. Put the N-S badge on a cap and they just don’t sit as an original picture shows, that’s what I like about old pictures, they show how things were worn.
Regards
Irv