Essex Tank and new crop brass repros

[DavidS]

I took a flier on this Essex repro (pictured) as a curiosity. It appears chemically darkened, and the highlights have been buffed with a (my guess) rotary tool. The back shows no signs of age or wear at all and is far too clean for a genuine badge. Long, footed lugs, grinding on the edges, etc.

I bought this suspecting that 'it was what it was', but the fully stamped-looking back had me intrigued, as a genuine w.m. Essex isn't detailed at all like this. Putting a glass on this, I am guessing that someone has taken an impression of the front of a real Essex, and used a negative and a positive of same to create a clam shell mold to cast these. The stump of the sprue is near the edge just below the rear right lug (a circular remnant ground down).

There are currently two more badges like this on eBay now, although neither is blackened like this one. One is clean brass, the other has verdigris (again, chem. aging maybe), but otherwise, they appear to me to be the same.

As GGHG brass copies have been popping up like mushrooms of late, along with some other repros in brass not seen by me before (a brass Cape Breton Highlanders being one), I think we are looking at a new generation of copy Canadian badges coming from the UK.

All this being said, in Maz., he has a "c." brass version notation under the Essex. Anyone know anything about a real-deal brass Essex version and/or have a legit. sample they can post a pic. of?

P.S. the photo uploaded is a composite of the seller's eBay listing photo and her photo of the back which I had requested. It isn't my intent to be disparaging toward the seller, and I don't think the above represents any malice, but if the forum admins think posting the pic. represents any problem, please feel free to remove it.

[Doug N]

It's discouraging to see the repro cancer invading the Canadian badge sector. I guess we can expect to see more of this as mold making materials & centrifugal casting equipment are well within the price range of hobbyists & casual users. I have a model railroad friend who has made some impressive stuff with with tooling which cost under 500 bucks.

The defence here is that any mold which is made using an original badge as a master, will produce a cast badge smaller than that original. Of course, this only works for you if you know the true dimensions of an original, & take your micrometers to the swap meets.

Anyway, back to your topic, David.........I have posted a picture of a brass Essex Tank badge. I got it about 5-6 years back but never done any research as to what it really is. ('Speedy' has never been one of my nicknames) Unlike the white metal version, the brass badge is not voided. Other than that, the two badges appear similar / identical. They are also near identical in size; within .004" in both height & width. To my mind, this confirms the brass badge to be a die struck example. I'd be as interested as anyone to learn more about this piece - once again proving that being a badge collector & a badge expert are not the same thing.

Last point - the two Essex badges I have (brass & w/m) both have fully struck up reverses, the same as your repop does.

[DavidS]

Be interesting to see if anyone has any info on the orig. brass version. A bit of oddity in the maz. book inasmuch as the "c." looks hand-written below the "m.b.", almost as if it was scribed on the printing neg or plate.

[Bill A]

Thanks for this thread. This badge is quite interesting, and as David has indicated, highly suspect. Cast badges always give me second thoughts, and as Doug says should be thoroughly examined and compared. In my near 30 years of collecting, I have never seen a brass Essex Tank.

[bgpipes]

Is there any critique of the brass one showing on the forum, at C55 "cavalry" slot? I submitted it to the forum thinking it to be original, good possibility that it is "phony" as well. "bgpipes"

[DavidS]

This is a real magnifying glass comparison, but since I'm working off a screen image of yours I am open to correction, as I have to count highlights on your pic. If you can confirm the counts/positions, that would be great.

Anyway...

there are 7 "plate" sections on the tank, counting from left. Rivet counts and positions (mine, then yours) are totally different:

- section 3 has 3 top and bottom, plus full row left edge, vs. just 3 top & bottom and none along left edge;

- section 4 above the sponson has 5 top plus 1 left, vs. 4 and 1(?) right. Below sponson, 5 bottom plus 1 left vs. 4 plus 1 right;

- sections 2, 6 & 7 have relatively even rivet spacings vs. gaps (between 2nd & 3rd from bottom at right in section 2, between 1st & 2nd from top left in section 6, etc.);

- section 7 has 5 rivets across bottom vs. 3 (?) on yours, plus top rivet left is below the 'line' of rivets at the top of the plate vs. a matching miter corner.

Other things I see are that the letters in CANADA on yours are much cleaner than my repop (looks like they had to drill/grind out the voids on mine), and the leaf/leaf detail and lettering in the top of the oval is much sharper looking. I also don't see the grinding on the outside edge of the oval. I also get the impression yours is thicker than mine.

While I can't say yours is a good one seeing as I obviously have no clue, I am positive it is a different die than whatever they used to cast the repop in my hand.

What I DO see as odd, however, is that the rivet count/positions on my repop are the same as those on Doug N's unvoided badge, while the rivet count/positions on YOURS match those of the w.m. badge (just look at the w.m. badge above your brass one on the CanBadge page). Curiouser & curiouser. Since Doug said he picked his up 5-6 years ago, is it mean to speculate that it is an unvoided repop and these have been around for some time?

[Doug N]

Good eye, David. I had not noticed the two 'rivit variants' before. Now that I'm looking, there are white metal badges in each variant also. The pic below is from my collection - same details as my brass badge, but different from both of bgpipe's. A search of ebay turns up both variants in w/m being offered for sale.

I don't think the necessary conclusion is that one variant is real & the other fake. There's no features on my two badges which makes me think they were cast. Is it probable that the originals were struck from two different dies; perhaps by two different manufacturers?

For the record, my badges measure (width / height):
brass: 2.0415" / 1.8870"
w/m: 2.0450" / 1.8935"

If your badge is a cast repop, I'm betting it's .030" -.040" under these dimensions.

[bgpipes]

Thanks David S for your commentary, I wonder why that particular badge was chosen to reproduce, it seems to me to be one of the more common badges in the 1920-1950 series and not worthy of the effort. Thanks again! "bgpipes"

[DavidS]

Per bgpipes' question as to why, I'd say, "Who knows?". I've seen cast repros of the RCAMC for heaven's sake, and you can't get any more common and dirt cheap for an original than that. Still, must be a buck -- or a Pound or a Euro -- in it. The trend does, however, seem to be toward reproing more and more KC/WW2 Canadian badges. Cancer, thin edge of the wedge, or whatever, I'm beginning to get an uncomfortable feeling and a new appreciation for what the UK collectors up above on the forum have been going through.

The following (with another brass Essex at the top) are all current eBay listings of what I believe to be a crop of new reproductions. As you can see, some are of pretty dirt cheap originals as well, like the GGHG, which only began showing up a couple of months back.

Some particular seller differences, in that one major UK repro vendor seems to favour the plain brass finish, while another likes the chem-blackened, buffed 'enhancement'. I think once you view these in succession, you'll get a real feel for my drift. I think that PPCLI marguerette (how the heck do you really spell that word?) was a test-toe in the water, followed by an ensuing flood.

Essex Tanks
GGHG
Black Watch
Cape Breton Highlanders
PPCLI
226 CEF
32nd Btt'n
MG Corps
CDN Engineers
119th Algoma
72nd Seaforth
Perth Reg.
224th CEF Forestry
CDN Provost
Princess of Wales

plus at least 5 others.

Notice the commonality: same colour brass, same buff finish, same worn looking lettering, same long, footed copper lugs, etc.

Per Doug's points, I have no doubt there could be two dies. If you are sure about the 2nd type of rivet patterning in w.m., I'll have to find myself another w.m. Essex in that style style. Mine has the same rivet pattern as on the Canbadge forum. Unlike yours, mine is a much less detailed, smoother backed stamping (virtually no detail on the tank body on the reverse).

PS> Mr. Pipes, any chance of posting or pming me a pic of the back of your brass badge?

[Voltigeur]

David, I could understand someone making repro of some difficult to get badges i.e. IMHO CEFs and militia 's but, going for the KCs ?????? Maybe someone in the UK decided that there was no money to be made anymore reproing British badges, and started on the more "exotic" Canadian badges, not knowing which were the most collected or the more common ones. So, get a few canadian badges and start the process,betting that the british customer won't see the difference.....as we,unless member of this forum, don't know the difference between a British badge made in the 1stWW , or 2ndWW badge or a copy made by Gaunt. But that's only my opinion.
BTW, the term for the device in the 1st WW P.P.C.L.I. badge, is a marguerite

Jo

[Bill A]

On a different tack, we should be documenting the characteristics that make the badges thad David linked, reproductions.
A thought about the reproduction choices, it is possible that the reproducer simpley had access to these badges and copied the ones at hand. The cost per repro piece is very low, as modern technology has made reproduction an inexpensive proposition. Once the master is made, it costs virtually nothing to make more badges. The vendor realized approximately $55 US on the Essex Tank brass. That is a significant sum, which will likely prompt further offerings. And it likely has more than covered the time and cost of making the badge. Any sale after this is pure gravy. I wonder how many have already made their way across the pond into dealers' stock?
The copies may not be targeted at the Canadian market, but at the European market, where there is great interest in Canadian inisignia. In that context the availability of the badge in Canada is not that relevant. Again, all of this points to the importance of a reference site like the forum for information and education.

[WJ Miller]

I used to have an Essex Tank (large rivets variety) that was marked Scully Ltd. Montreal. In fact it was marked "Montreal" in two places with two different styles of type. I don't have it anymore (sold it last fall), but I do have a lower resolution photo of the back of it...

You can see that the back is a weak or relatively indistinct striking. The one I have in my collection now is also a "large rivet" variety but unmarked. The back is a very crisp impression, same die however.

If we compare fronts of the Essex Tank badge on our forum (LL Will - "Small Rivets") and my badge ("Large Rivets"), you can see the "Large Rivets" are misshapen in several spots and there are ghost remnants of shallow rivet detail matching the "small rivets" design. I believe this to be evidence of die retooling. The sponson guns have also been altered slightly in the two varieties. The detail was enhanced in the rivets and the joins of the armour plates on this second die, but the detail was lost on the outside idler wheels.

My guess is the "small rivets" design came first. The shallow rivet detail plugged up quickly, and the die was remastered to bolster the details.
?

[Bill A]

Note that one striking has an off kilter crown. The left side as viewed has an arm of the crown that is higher than the right side.

[Dwayne H]

As already seen on the list, there is a new brass repro of the Perth Regiment cap badge. It is cast with a crude back lacking detail. Most original cap badges to the units were made in bronze. While there are legit brass examples, they are far less common. I've included a scan of the legit (one on the left) and repro badges...side by side they are easy to detect. The second scan is the front and back of the repro.

Notice that the vendor never shows the reverse of the badge. Perhaps someone should and see what the response is.

[DavidS]

Would there be any point in adding a 'known reproductions/fakes' area to each of the badges in the CanBadge project listings, or a check-list of fake vs. authentic badge characteristics, or even a new, 'known reproductions/fakes' page itself? The Canadian Soldier site had a guide to fakes page for a few badges at one time (1st APCR, Perth, Parachute Bttn and a few others), but it seems no longer available.