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  #1  
Old 03-01-13, 10:03 PM
Bungo Bungo is offline
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Default Inherited my NZ grandfather's WW1 badges - help identifying please!

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum. I collect medals, but I have absolutely no knowledge of badges beyond the very, very basic.

I recently inherited my NZ grandfather's WW1 medals, and along with them I received some badges that he brought back with him from the Western Front. Obviously he was a bit of a collector too! I don't plan to sell them, but I'm interested if any forum members out there can help me identify them and give me a rough idea of their values please?

I've attached a scan of the badges, along with descriptions and (where I can) my ideas on what they are. All are WW1 vintage and have been sitting in a drawer for the last 95-odd years:
A. NZ regiment colour patch - from pith helmets or some kind of headgear maybe? What regiment?
B. Sergeant stripes - NZ I assume?
C. Royal Marines collar badge
D. Grenadier Guards collar badge I think?
E. Royal Horse Guards collar badge
F. Royal Navy button?
G. Unknown badge - text "YPRES" under I assume the city crest. Belgian army badge, or a commercial souvenir?
H. I think this is a Reservist cockade from a German feldmutze cap - colours seem to be Wurttemburg, red paint in centre is in good condition, black paint around the outer mostly worn off. Reservist cross in centre.
I. Ribbon for German Iron Cross. I wonder how he ended up owning these two German souvenirs?
J. "NZMR" shoulder tab - New Zealand Mounted Rifles I think?
K. NZ 13th Reinforcements badge, "RD.812" in small type - I know nothing about these next few NZ badges...
L. NZ 11th Reinforcements badge, "RD.812" in small type.
M. 20th New Zealand badge - crest around bird reads "Kokiri Kia Maia"
N. NZ XIII badge, scroll at bottom reads "Kia Pono Tonu"
O. NZ Reinforcements badge, centre scroll under upright lion reads "Boyes Ferme" or "Soyes Ferme".
P. "1st Canterbury Regt" on brass scroll, "Ake Ake Kia Kaha" on silver base, silver bird at top.
Q. "NZ XXV" on scroll, upright Maori figure above.

Any help you can offer will be hugely appreciated! I suspect some of the NZ badges in particular might be hidden gems or rarities? If you need higher resolution scans of any, please just ask.

Thanks,
Bungo



If this link doesn't work, the scan is at http://imgur.com/BXSKi
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  #2  
Old 04-01-13, 01:29 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi Bungo,
A nice lot you have there.
Most of the badges are self-explanatory but here are some comments for you:
A. This is a patch (worn at top of back of a NZ soldier's tunic) for the 2nd Battalion of the Canterbury Infantry Regiment, red over blue, so your illustration is on its side.
B. These are 3 years service stripes worn point upwards on the lower right sleeve of tunic.
C. Is a Marine Light Infantry collar badge.
D. Is an Artillery or Engineers collar badge, also worn by Fusilier Regiments on the shoulder strap with title.
E. Is a hat badge.
F. As you say, a Royal Navy button.
G. Is a souvenir brooch.
J. New Zealand Mounted Rifles shoulder title, correct.
M. 20th Reinforcements collar badge.
N. 13th (North Canterbury and Westland) Infantry Regiment hat badge.
O. Rifle Brigade Reinforcement badge (SOYES FERME).
P. Collar badge of 1st (Canterbury) Infantry Regiment
Q. Collar badge of 25th Reinforcements.

Hope this is of some help.
Cheers, Tinto

Last edited by Tinto; 04-01-13 at 01:35 AM. Reason: typo correction
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  #3  
Old 04-01-13, 01:49 AM
Bungo Bungo is offline
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Hi Tinto,

Thanks for your response. Are any particularly rare or unusual, or are these pretty basic badges for an NZ WWI collection?
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  #4  
Old 04-01-13, 01:56 AM
Spr Jock Spr Jock is offline
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HI guys ,

D. Is a Royal Artillery grenade , seven flames .

Engineers have 9 flames .


Jock
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  #5  
Old 04-01-13, 03:01 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi Bungo,
All NZ Reinforcement badges fetch good prices (Roughly, hat badges about NZ$70.00+ and collars about NZ$40.00+) and the red/blue patch is valuable.
Tinto
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  #6  
Old 04-01-13, 04:35 AM
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btns btns is offline
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F. Indeed Royal Navy, petty officer
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  #7  
Old 05-01-13, 01:00 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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An interesting family collection you have Bungo, they are all pieces of your grandfather's journey.
If you supply your grandfather's service number, we could possibly put them in the chronological order that he collected them.

Just to add to Tinto's observations.-
“A” could also be a “1st Battalion of the Canterbury Infantry Regiment patch.”
“D” I concur with Tinto, it is a generic grenade badge that was worn in New Zealand on the collars by volunteer ordinary ranks of Artillery and Engineers, and the Wellington Guards wore white metal versions. They were also worn by NZ Territorial ordinary ranks of Artillery, Engineers, Railway Engineers and Signals.

It might be worth posting the "H" cocade on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum if no one here can provide positive id.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 05-01-13 at 01:06 AM.
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  #8  
Old 05-01-13, 02:12 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Thanks, Brent, for pointing out that the patch could also be for the 1st Battalion of the Canterbury Infantry Regiment. I am unsure whether it is then worn with blue or red to the left as viewed. "The Record of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force in the Great War" poster has the blue to the left but Malcolm Thomas and Cliff Lord's book indicates that it's red to the left.
Cheers, Tinto
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  #9  
Old 05-01-13, 03:17 AM
Bungo Bungo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
An interesting family collection you have Bungo, they are all pieces of your grandfather's journey.
If you supply your grandfather's service number, we could possibly put them in the chronological order that he collected them.
Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge. My grandfather was 34622 Private Thomas Burns.

Here's a photo of his medals and his certificate of discharge in 1919. I remember seeing this when I was a kid in the 1970s, and I think this was what started me on my hobby of collecting militaria, and medals in particular. I feel very honoured to have inherited it.

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  #10  
Old 05-01-13, 04:26 AM
Spr Jock Spr Jock is offline
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Bungo ,
check this out mate

Quote:
1904 Dress Regs contain photo of officer's badges. This pictures RE officer’s grenade collar with 9 flames & RA grenade collar with 7 flames. It does not indicate metals. ....
.... Until 1922 the same design grenade (Catalogue No 1674) was worn by OR's of both RA & RE, but only as tunic insignia.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...?t=6668&page=2

Jock
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  #11  
Old 05-01-13, 07:26 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Bungo, I checked your grandfather's service records, but they are not online yet.

http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/...?code=21890230

However his records on the Cenotaph Database offer up our first clues.

http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/datab...r_search=34622

It would seem your Grandfather registered for active service in Christchurch on the 27th May 1916, and was called into Threntham camp as part of Canterbury Quota for the 20th Reinforcements on the 26th August 1916.

Item “M” is probably your grandfathers collar badge.

Your grandfather embarked with the 20th Reinforcements Canterbury Infantry Battalion, C Company, on the 7th December 1916.
His service records would be most helpful in putting all the pieces together, especially to see if items “N” or “P” are his regimental badges.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-13, 09:01 AM
Spr Jock Spr Jock is offline
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Here ya go Bongo .

Hard to read on here tho .
A wee bit easier online (at the first web link in the post above).

Oh , and Factory Rd Sockburn was renamed Waterloo Rd in 1946.
Hornby rather than Sockburn too . Its' on google earth .

Jock
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  #13  
Old 06-01-13, 01:19 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Thanks to Jock who has pointed out that Bungo's grandfathers service records are available online.

http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/...pid=FL13484603

Interestingly Bungo, your grandfathers service records list his occupation as a painter, whereas his registration for active service, he is listed as a butchers assistant, and in his attestation papers he states he was employed by the Islington Freezing Works.
Possibly, due to his being only 19 when he went into Trentham camp (20 was the normal enlistment age in NZ, so he would have had approval of at least one parent) he may have thought being a painter would secure him a place in the front line.

His service records show that Private Thomas Burns was called into “Featherston camp” as part of Canterbury Quota for the 20th Reinforcements on the 24th August 1916, and was attested on the 26th August 1916.

Thomas disembarked at Devonport and marched into Sling camp on the 18th February 1917 as part of the Canterbury Regiment. On the 30th March 1917, Thomas was marched into Codford Camp.
On the 4th April 1917, Thomas was assigned to the Canterbury 4th Brigade and posted to its 1st Company.
On the 27th May 1917, Thomas departed Codford and embarked for France on the 28th May 1917.

As mentioned in my previous post, it is likely that item “M” was worn as a collar badge while Thomas was a member of the 20th Reinforcements.
It is also likely that items “K,” “L,” “O” and “P” (If not belonging to other relatives) were collected/traded by Thomas sometime between the 24th August 1916 and the 7th May 1917.

It is likely that the 1st Canterbury Regiment collar badge, item “P” was issued to Thomas around the 4th April 1917.

It is likely that item “A” is a “1st Canterbury Battalion” pathch that was worn by Thomas.
As Tinto points out there is some confussion to how the 1st Canterbury Battalion patch was displayed. "The Record of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force in the Great War" poster is incorrect. In fact, the way that Bungo has displayed item “A,” is correct for the 1st Canterbury Battalion. (Worn with the scarlet triangle on the left and blue on the right)

The rest of the items were most likely collected by Thomas from June 1917 onwards.

Interestingly, on the 17th March 1918, Thomas was transferred to the No. 2 Entrenching Battalion, serving with them until the 2nd September 1918.
(In February 1918, on the absorption of the Fourth Brigade, it was organised into three entrenching battalions)

“On April 12 (1918) No. 2 Entrenching Battalion, strength 22 officers and 1130 other ranks, moved hurriedly by motor bus from Abeele to St. Jaus Capel to fill a gap near Meteren, and attached to the 10th Division. They rendered excellent service, and fought well, but some captured through being cut off. Casualties, 251.”

A very interesting time capsule of a collection, which hopefully will remain in the family for generations to come.
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  #14  
Old 06-01-13, 09:53 AM
Bungo Bungo is offline
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Default Thank you!

Thanks everyone for your help!

Many years ago I wrote to the NZ military archives, and they sent me a photocopy of Thomas' personal files. However, the additional info that you people have been able to come up with is invaluable. It really helps to flesh out the full story.

I really do appreciate it, and as atillathenuns points out, "A very interesting time capsule of a collection, which hopefully will remain in the family for generations to come." My newborn daughter will inherit these in turn in (hopefully) many many years time.

Bungo
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