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  #106  
Old 04-02-20, 12:53 AM
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Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
So had a good laugh to myself when Luke H in post #23, posted a link To Shaun’s album and his die-cast LRDG badge saying – “There are plenty of images (front and back) of good LRDG badges on here.”
I’ve had a good laugh to myself that you still don’t know the difference between a die stamped badge and die cast badge.

Also if that badge is unissued WW2 stock how it is not genuine?

It’s certainly more genuine than the sand casting of the MM fake which started this thread. From the features pointed out and images by Slinky Cat and myself I’m more than satisfied we’ve established the origins of the badge from the original post.

These unissued badges would also seem more certain to be genuine with their provenance (and construction) than some of the others shown which to date in this thread include ‘reputed to come from a veteran who served in Africa’ , ‘mentioned in LRDG Rhodesia’ , ‘supposedly attributed to Lieut Col. James Sutherland’ and the (paraphrasing) ‘I cant remember who I got this off’ provenance letter.

The words reputed, supposedly and mentioned do not inspire me with confidence. That’s not to dismiss any of those badges.

The issue with badges appearing in books is when they ‘appeared’. If it’s after the fact of reproductions then there’s always the chance a repro may be included accidentally or otherwise. The double scroll nelly pagri badge in Gaylor was a cynical attempt as far back as 1971 to legitimise a fake for financial gain. A recent much acclaimed book on Pals badges contains several fakes despite excellent sources such as the forum existing. The re-print of Gaylor with better photos - done by Peter Taylor contains a multitude of fakes (including a MM LRDG!) this is despite him being a SF collector and only selling ‘ORIGINAL’ Militaria, supposedly.

As Rob says if these badges were being produced in Egypt and able to be purchased by deserters then you’ve effectively got re-casts from the year dot being made in potentially untold numbers to an unknown end date?

One word is needed to remove uncertainty. Provenance.

With the unissued die cast badges there is to my knowledge no suggestion they’ve been restruck from those original dies.

I think it speaks volumes that the seller of the badge that started this thread has not come back with an update or provided the further information from this respected dealer as promised.

The fact the badge came in company with a universally denounced as fake title seems to have been glossed over and forgotten too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
100% money back guarantee's only means something if the person is honest.
A money back guarantee means nothing, it doesn’t make a badge real or fake. People make mistakes even with best intentions.

With waters well an truly muddied I’m tapping out of this thread as we are just going round circles of opinions and hearsay which have long since deviated from the badge in question that was the subject of this thread.

Last edited by Luke H; 04-02-20 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Spelling
  #107  
Old 04-02-20, 06:46 AM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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Originally Posted by castagain View Post
Edy, I added the diameter measurement to my post #90.

Cheers,
Donovan
Sorry for that Donovan, yes 33mm is correct. Not so ugly anymore
If you are perchance discouraged by some of these long-winded posts Please contact me as I would be very happy to purchase it.

Cheers Edy
  #108  
Old 04-02-20, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Hello Edy
I am sure the flat lugs are contemporary to ME Cdo badge manufacture - also 'early on' - ie 50, 51, 52 ME Cdo formed Geneifa Egypt, circa 1 Aug 1940, 15 Oct 1940, 1 Nov 1940 respectively. I would think their distinctive badge would be issued virtually at the same time as LRDG. LRDG formed at Abbassia, Cairo, 3 July 1940. There are variants of the ME Cdo badge - but that is a whole new debate. Two examples of ME Cdo badge are attached.
Mike
Thanks Mike, We appreciate your wealth of information.

Cheers Edy
  #109  
Old 04-02-20, 11:42 AM
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Many questions remain unanswered and the thread has deviated from the original post to a thread on apparently genuine LRDG badges with the majority of them having little or no provenance.
I count about six badges in this thread that have been declared as genuine by Edyc7 and atillathenunns and all of them are different.
From the information here it appears that two can be verified as genuine because they belonged to David Lloyd Owen.
There must have been as many variations for these badges as there were for WW2 SAS wings and beret badges ie infinite.
It is a very high probability that the LRDG badge sold on ebay by Steve Wende is a fake.
I'll leave the discussion because I'm not interested in debates that don't prove anything. I'm only interested in opinions if they lead to facts or the truth not suppositions and probabilities. I must say in parts it has been interesting.
  #110  
Old 04-02-20, 11:47 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
Thanks Mike, We appreciate your wealth of information.

Cheers Edy
Edy - no problem - I am learning a lot from debate on the forum. It appears to me that LRDG badges are a mine field. I know respected LRDG collectors where one tells me a silver badge I have is a definite fake, the other says it is definitely OK and the same as one he knows a veteran had. Of course, if my own 'Commando' collecting is anything to go by, not everything a veteran got hold of was contemporary war issue. Association badges are one example. Personally, I regard any badge made with the intention of issue in WW2 to be a genuine, contemporary WW2 badge - even if held in stores or withdrawn through a fault. It is interesting to collect these variants - although debate can be as varied as found in this LRDG thread. Again, personally, I always feel it best to keep an open mind until definitive evidence emerges - I just keep queries safe on one side, and do not mount them in with other known genuine badges, unless they pass 'out of quarantine'. These conundrums are sometimes frustrating, but prompt more research which is good to share. All the best - Mike
  #111  
Old 04-02-20, 04:28 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Edy - no problem - I am learning a lot from debate on the forum. It appears to me that LRDG badges are a mine field. I know respected LRDG collectors where one tells me a silver badge I have is a definite fake, the other says it is definitely OK and the same as one he knows a veteran had. Of course, if my own 'Commando' collecting is anything to go by, not everything a veteran got hold of was contemporary war issue. Association badges are one example. Personally, I regard any badge made with the intention of issue in WW2 to be a genuine, contemporary WW2 badge - even if held in stores or withdrawn through a fault. It is interesting to collect these variants - although debate can be as varied as found in this LRDG thread. Again, personally, I always feel it best to keep an open mind until definitive evidence emerges - I just keep queries safe on one side, and do not mount them in with other known genuine badges, unless they pass 'out of quarantine'. These conundrums are sometimes frustrating, but prompt more research which is good to share. All the best - Mike
I have had the good fortune to examine a few LRDG groupings.
Some of them had up to four different wings & others three cap/beret badges all different. Many veterans where happy enough to include their association badge with their other items.
This association badge is widely reproduced and often referred to as fake.

Thanks Edy
  #112  
Old 04-02-20, 04:32 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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I am of the opinion that the LRDG title that was condemned earlier in this thread may in fact be an original.
I have compiled an image data base of over 18 accepted as original LRDG titles. Unfortunately I am unable to attach these images due to copyright and not having consent to do so.
I have noted that they all differ and even the matching pairs, although not dissimilar, do differ from one another. This title however is not dissimilar and compares favorably with the shape, color, size of lettering and stitching used in many of the known variants.
I have included an earlier image of this title as it was presented a few years back on auction.
I am open to anyone persuading me otherwise.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D3B3BE1B-402B-4117-8251-EBFA961BD351.jpg (73.6 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg 8A11CAB1-922C-4587-AEE7-F52D44ABFD66.jpg (83.7 KB, 29 views)
  #113  
Old 04-02-20, 04:53 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
I have had the good fortune to examine a few LRDG groupings.
Some of them had up to four different wings & others three cap/beret badges all different. Many veterans where happy enough to include their association badge with their other items.
This association badge is widely reproduced and often referred to as fake.

Thanks Edy
Picture of a known Association badge attached.

Cheers Edy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg E55DFC14-F811-4F94-A9B9-F902035F355B.jpg (114.6 KB, 72 views)
  #114  
Old 04-02-20, 08:53 PM
Monty Cassino Monty Cassino is offline
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Default Silver badge at C&T today

anyone see that one? went very cheaply!
  #115  
Old 05-02-20, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
I am of the opinion that the LRDG title that was condemned earlier in this thread may in fact be an original.
I have compiled an image data base of over 18 accepted as original LRDG titles. Unfortunately I am unable to attach these images due to copyright and not having consent to do so.
I have noted that they all differ and even the matching pairs, although not dissimilar, do differ from one another. This title however is not dissimilar and compares favorably with the shape, color, size of lettering and stitching used in many of the known variants.
I have included an earlier image of this title as it was presented a few years back on auction.
I am open to anyone persuading me otherwise.
Is there a reason that you use James MacKenzie's photos? I see a conflict of interest when you use his photos to push the originality of the title in this thread, especially when they're both exactly the same one.
  #116  
Old 05-02-20, 09:53 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
I am of the opinion that the LRDG title that was condemned earlier in this thread may in fact be an original.
I have compiled an image data base of over 18 accepted as original LRDG titles. Unfortunately I am unable to attach these images due to copyright and not having consent to do so.
I have noted that they all differ and even the matching pairs, although not dissimilar, do differ from one another. This title however is not dissimilar and compares favorably with the shape, color, size of lettering and stitching used in many of the known variants.
I have included an earlier image of this title as it was presented a few years back on auction.
I am open to anyone persuading me otherwise.
How can matching pairs differ?
  #117  
Old 05-02-20, 10:34 PM
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Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
Picture of a known Association badge attached.

Cheers Edy
No doubt ordered from this catalogue of FAKES.
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Last edited by Luke H; 06-02-20 at 12:25 AM.
  #118  
Old 06-02-20, 01:09 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman View Post
How can matching pairs differ?
Hi Keith
Sorry for any misunderstanding. By “matching pairs” I meant that through my observations pairs of titles that had been worn together by LRDG members during the war, differed.
See Pg. 53 British Airborne Insignia.
  #119  
Old 06-02-20, 01:24 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Edyc7 View Post
Picture of a known Association badge attached.

Cheers Edy
I hold the opinion, that people like Brenden O’Carroll, Jonathan Pittaway, Craig Fourie and others who have done extensive research, interviewed the last remaining veterans and obtained their findings from the source are in fact experts on the subject.

It is their findings and published as such in their works that the badge in the post #113 is in fact an Association badge.
  #120  
Old 06-02-20, 01:26 PM
Edyc7 Edyc7 is offline
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When one tries to provide providence for an original WWII badge given the passage of time and the fact that most of the eye witnesses are no longer available to testify, I think that a balance of probabilities is as valid a test as beyond a reasonable doubt.

Cheers Edy
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