LRDG

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

A few years back I spoke to Craig Fourie, co-author of LRDG RHODESIA and he told me that the cast badge in their book was owned by one of the veterans they interviewed. This was later confirmed to me by Jonathan Pittaway a couple of years back. See att. photo.

There is another blackened one in the book L’ODYSSEE DE LA COLONNE LECLERC and is from the collection of Didier Corbonnis. This one is also reputed to come from a veteran who served in Africa.

Edy

Here are a couple of photos of the back of this badge 1st left & 2nd center. For comparison I have included one with its’ original black finish, 3rd right.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Apologies for the late reply. I maintain my original opinion on the origin of the badge in question.

As a point of clarity and technicality, catching up I’ve read numerous posts in this thread referring to ‘die stamped’ badges. Not a single badge shown in this thread is die stamped.

A die stamped badge is made from a male and reverse detail female die striking metal. The badges shown in post #59 are ‘die cast’ not die struck. Whereas the badge that is the subject of this thread is ‘sand cast’ from a die cast badge.

Are you 100% sure you know the differences between an original cast LRDG badge, an original die-struck LRDG badge, and an original die-cast LRDG badge???

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

And after 72 posts I’m still none the wiser as to which of all the badges posted is supposed to be genuine.

Keith I joined at post #21, and still none of those who have declared the swende badge to be a fake, have been kind enough to share their honest original genuine WW2 “Cast” LRDG badge from their collections, so we can draw some comparisons for ourselves.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Hi Brent
Here is a day light photo of the back of the DLO sand cast badge.
On closer examination one can see molten metal run off. Could this be because the shrinkage cavity was filled in with molten metal? See post #3 below.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ead.php?t=9982

The sand cast badges existed for a very brief period. I am of the opinion that there may have been some testing or experimenting going on as many of these have broken off lugs.

Thanks Edy, that is a much better picture, and I can confirm it is the same LRDG badge from the DLO collection.

Could it be possible the spots on the back are just splatter marks? but otherwise it could well be a cast badge.
Can you provide better photos that could show the indent behind the scorpion, or is it as flat as it looks.
Cheers
Brent

[Edyc7]

Hi Brent, the photo is a good representation of the back. I have examined a couple of others with the same flattened backs.
We are going to have to draw our conclusions from research and what has been presented from time to time.

Thanks Edy

[castagain]

In hope of replying to atillathenunns' post #21, here's what I believe to be an original cast LRDG badge, from my collection.

Best regards,
Donovan

[Mike B]

Hello Donovan
I am learning a lot from this thread.
I particularly like the look of the lugs on your badge - very reminiscent of those correct for cast 50, 51 and 52 Middle East Commando badges (the well known 'knuckle knife' pattern). Is there any chance of a close up - side ways on image please of the lugs on this LRDG pattern. No problem if not. I imagine they are 'inset' into the metal as in the ME Cdo badge.
All the best
Mike

[castagain]

Of course, Mike, glad to oblige. Hope these photos are clear enough, it's a challenge to my photography skills to get a sharp image from the side.

Best regards,
Donovan

[castagain]

...here's a better shot from the other side.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Hi Brent, the photo is a good representation of the back. I have examined a couple of others with the same flattened backs.
We are going to have to draw our conclusions from research and what has been presented from time to time.

Thanks Edy

Edy, you are very fortunate to be the current caretaker of the David L. Lloyd Owen “cast” LRDG badge. It certainly was IMO the pick of the bunch.

I have been looking for a 100% pukka “cast” example to add to my files for quite some time, so I am quite happy to admit I was wrong and agree that the DLO badge is indeed cast.

It just goes to show that you can easily be deceived if just working by pictures alone so having an original badge in hand is a big advantage when drawing comparisons.

Thankyou for the pictures in post #76, I cant remember seeing this type of cast variation before, they all certainly seem to have the same deep depression on the scorpions back, unlike the smooth backed DLO and swende badges.

So it seems so far, thanks to you, we now have two cast variations of LRDG badge to draw our conclusions from.

To add to the photo pile, the following badge was sold by a well-known New Zealand dealer and is supposedly attributed to Lieut Col. James Sutherland.

This badge came from Lieut Col. James Sutherland. Obverse.jpgThis badge came from Lieut Col. James Sutherland. Reverse.jpg

This one has no known history.

Type 1 Cast Variation obverse.jpgType 1 Cast Variation reverse.jpg

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by castagain

In hope of replying to atillathenunns' post #21, here's what I believe to be an original cast LRDG badge, from my collection.

Best regards,
Donovan

Hi Donovan, you are taking a big leap of faith considering the reception at the beginning of this thread.

I’m no expert but I do like your badge, it has some interesting features such as the gap between the pincers and the big gap between the D and the G.

It seems to have the same features as this badge that was sold by the well known LRDG author Brendan O’carroll.

$(KGrHqNHJFIFHm))q-+vBR-HZNuvGQ~~60_1.jpg$(KGrHqYOKp0FHhB5wB!LBR-HZQ!rmQ~~60_1.jpg
$(KGrHqZHJCYFHR8SuZkmBR-HZSsQ+w~~60_1.jpg

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by castagain

Of course, Mike, glad to oblige. Hope these photos are clear enough, it's a challenge to my photography skills to get a sharp image from the side.

Best regards,
Donovan

Hi Donovan
The lugs are a perfect match for genuine ME Cdo 'fanny knife' pattern - flat, folded over, set in - all great features of a period cast ME Cdo badge badge. Many thanks for sharing - a benchmark for comparison purposes - and very clear. Consistency of this type of lug must be a strong vindication of your excellent LRDG badge.
Mike

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Edy, you are very fortunate to be the current caretaker of the David L. Lloyd Owen “cast” LRDG badge. It certainly was IMO the pick of the bunch.

I have been looking for a 100% pukka “cast” example to add to my files for quite some time, so I am quite happy to admit I was wrong and agree that the DLO badge is indeed cast.

It just goes to show that you can easily be deceived if just working by pictures alone so having an original badge in hand is a big advantage when drawing comparisons.

Thankyou for the pictures in post #76, I cant remember seeing this type of cast variation before, they all certainly seem to have the same deep depression on the scorpions back, unlike the smooth backed DLO and swende badges.

So it seems so far, thanks to you, we now have two cast variations of LRDG badge to draw our conclusions from.

To add to the photo pile, the following badge was sold by a well-known New Zealand dealer and is supposedly attributed to Lieut Col. James Sutherland.

Attachment 218159Attachment 218160

This one has no known history.

Attachment 218161Attachment 218162

Thanks Brent, it’s definitely easier to draw comparisons when you have originals to compare them to.
Having said that, I’d like to comment that the two badges in this post do not have the indicators present that one would need to find in the Sand Cast variants (posts #35 left, #46) nor in the Die struck type (posts#35 right, #52 & #59).
Unfortunately for reasons known by members of the forum it would not be wise for me to reveal details on the indicators.

Cheers Edy

[Edyc7]

I have posted a Sand Cast type of the latter version LRDG badge with flat lugs for comparison purposes.
This type can also be seen on pg.145 LRDG RHODESIA, 1st Print & pg.331 LRDG RHODESIA, 2nd Print. Jonathan Pittaway and Craig Fourie.

[castagain]

Hello Edy,

Thanks for your positive contributions to this thread -- as Mike said, it has been very informative and educational for me, particularly regarding the sand cast LRDG variants, of which I knew nothing.

I'd be interested in your feedback on the attached images. I've had this badge for some time -- it's ugly as sin, and didn't resemble any known authentic badge that I was aware of, thus I've relegated it to a dark corner of my spares bin. Compared to the photos of post #35 left and #46, are there some similarities? This badge is 33mm in diameter.

Cheers,
Donovan