Irish Guards date?

[bess55]

So my question then is, are ALL of the Guards badges with sliders NOT original badges and 'collectors' or 'copies' - no matter how old they appear?

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes, I thank that most slidered gilding metal Guards badges were made for the collector’s market, and aren’t original issue.

I profoundly disagree.

There are plenty original badges in existence not in WO records at all or confirming to their ‘strict specifications’.

By 1915 demand for badges was such we see the list of manufacturers explode to meet demand. This is born out in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette. There was also very likely a significant amount of sub-contracting going on beyond that captured in official WO contract awards within the gazette.

The quality of the Irish Guards badge in the OP and style of slider in no way resemble a product of 1960s manufacture.

However style and quality, or rather lack of, does dovetail with a large cohort of poorly made and odd WW1 badges inc. regimental tower Northants, Suffolks, etc. etc. these are in period photos and not to WO ‘strict specifications’.

Bess if you don’t want that badge I’ll gladly give you a fiver for it.

There’s a former member and well known eBay dealer who I expect would charge near four times that figure for your badge.

Re the slidered GG and flames I do recall reading that there was a suggestion some are Canadian.

[bess55]

Thanks Luke, I have no intention of moving any of them on - my original post was to gain some knowledge and clarity around the Irish Guards slidered badge (which does appear to have cleaning wear).

Bess

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by bess55

So my question then is, are ALL of the Guards badges with sliders NOT original badges and 'collectors' or 'copies' - no matter how old they appear?

My understanding is that slidered badges were not specified by the War Office for the Foot Guards. I don’t doubt that there were other badges provided (sold) via canteens, etc. I wasn’t suggesting for one second that you should move anything on. There’s a gulf of difference between not ‘issued’ and not ‘worn’.
None of the badges I posted were Canadian. The current grenade style is, I repeat, not the original. There are numerous photos in the Grenadier Guards archive (museum collection) showing the original style that I posted above. I’ve explained the development of the Grenadiers cap insignia in the thread “Grenade Fired Proper”.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by bess55

So my question then is, are ALL of the Guards badges with sliders NOT original badges and 'collectors' or 'copies' - no matter how old they appear?

No true. For started the WG were issued with sliders and I have already posted a photo of my GG badge from the 1940s.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

No true. For started the WG were issued with sliders and I have already posted a photo of my GG badge from the 1940s.

The original issue Welsh Guards badge from 1915, when the regiment was first formed, had loops (and a solid back), following the same fixing method of all the Foot Guards at the time. There are zillions of Guards badges with sliders (it’s been over a century since WW1 after all), but the war office specification was for loops (I’m sure someone posted details here in the past). Even when anodised aluminium badges were issued the specification for loops remained, but as brass badges were an old sweat thing private purchase was encouraged and many guardsmen purchased their own brass badges with sliders. A platoon of guardsmen on parade circa 1970s/80s often wore a mixture of aa and brass badges both in their then blue berets, and subsequently in the newly adopted khaki berets. Several decades later, as a quartermaster at an all arms unit my clothing store held guards badges along with the rest of the infantry. The guards badges all had loops, as per original specification. I do not know what the situation is today with the new era improved badges.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

That style of Grenade fired proper is the most common version, but not the original shape used. Here is the original pattern. Note - no sliders.

How can you be sure thats the original pattern Toby ? The undress cap you have shown is my one, dated 1858 with grenade, could this grenade not be the original pattern ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

How can you be sure thats the original pattern Toby ? The undress cap you have shown is my one, dated 1858 with grenade, could this grenade not be the original pattern ?
Andy

I was referring to the flame shape aspect Andy. That type went back a long way and I’m fairly sure we discussed it as almost certainly originating as a cartouche pouch badge towards the end of the thread on the Grenade Fired Proper. Photographic evidence (which for the GG is quite good) indicates it was still the badge shape used on the circa 1900 guards pattern forage cap (similar to the Brodrick). That same visual evidence suggests that the current shape commenced with the 1905 peaked forage cap with brass strip edging to its peak, although there would have been a transitional period when both badges were being used until old badges were ‘wasted out’ (a practice going back centuries). Something acceptable on undress uniform but not full dress.

Although not by any means all, I find that many collectors tend to look at cap badges in a rather one dimensional way and perhaps forget that all badges owe their origin to specific piece of clothing/headdress, or equipment. When headdress changes so too very often does the badge. The Foot Guards are unquestionably the most conservative institution in the Army and when change is forced on other parts of the Army they commonly go their own way, changing only what they believe to be essential.

There is strong visual evidence (I’ve scrutinised hundreds of photos over a long time) that the current badge shape originated with the 1905 cap that is still essentially the same cap worn today. That badge had loops, and it is the canteen and PRI shop badges sold over very many decades since WW1 that had sliders fitted. I have never seen a slidered badge issued on an AF B1157 from a clothing store. They all had loops and came with a cotter pin. I believe that in part that was logical reasoning as it matched the higher position that the badge was worn on the cap (it wouldn’t rotate) but also that for decades it matched with the gilding metal shoulder titles that were also fitted via loops or [later] rhomboid tabs with rectangular slots, and cotter pins. This latter coordination remained the same with the anodised aluminium replacements that I imagine you will recall wearing yourself (I’m unsure of your vintage).

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes, I thank that most slidered gilding metal Guards badges were made for the collector’s market, and aren’t original issue.

Toby, Messrs J.R.Guant and Son Ltd certainly made Guards slidered grenades prior to 1954. As I have already mentioned, there is proof of correspondence between the Grenadiers and J.R.Gaunt, held at the National Archives. I have copies. The letters are from
The War Office, Ord 17d
Room, Spur 3A
Chessington
Surrey
The letters state ( I will keep it brief )
Cap Badge OR's Grenadier Guards
1. The new type of pin is not a success. Constant removal of the grenade for cleaning will result in the insertion in the cap becoming larger than necessary and the grenade will be inclined to " float " or swing. The old type of pin should be reverted to.
So we know slidered grenades were issued, and by J.R.Guant up to 1954, but from when ?
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Yes, I know it refers to the pin ( Slider ) as new, but how new ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Toby, Messrs J.R.Guant and Son Ltd certainly made Guards slidered grenades prior to 1954. As I have already mentioned, there is proof of correspondence between the Grenadiers and J.R.Gaunt, held at the National Archives. I have copies. The letters are from
The War Office, Ord 17d
Room, Spur 3A
Chessington
Surrey
The letters state ( I will keep it brief )
Cap Badge OR's Grenadier Guards
1. The new type of pin is not a success. Constant removal of the grenade for cleaning will result in the insertion in the cap becoming larger than necessary and the grenade will be inclined to " float " or swing. The old type of pin should be reverted to.
So we know slidered grenades were issued, and by J.R.Guant up to 1954, but from when ?
Andy

Thank you Andy, that’s a really useful indication that for a brief period the slider was used and found unsatisfactory. The use of the word not a success and float or swing is exactly what I mean about the loops being preferred over a very long period indeed for the precise reason that they kept badges firmly in place. Although it’s not clear when the experiment started the implication is that it didn’t go on for very long. My guess would be perhaps at the time of the Coronation (1953) when insignia was widely changed across the Army to reflect the new crown. Even the Foot Guards were affected by that with waistbelt clasps and some other aspects such as GG buttons and shoulder titles (cyphers). I wonder if that had been the first issue to the Guards of anodised aluminium?

[grenadierguardsman]

I also have a Coldstream Guards OR's cap star on a slider maker marked F.N B'Ham. I have shown it on the forum some time ago, and it is deemed original.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I also have a Coldstream Guards OR's cap star on a slider maker marked F.N B'Ham. I have shown it on the forum some time ago, and it is deemed original.
Andy

You mustn’t conflate ‘original’ with ‘issue’. As I’ve tried to explain there’s a huge difference between the two. Badges were sold through unit sources for many decades. They provided a profit and enabled guardsmen to have more badges than they were entitled to by issue (publicly funded). I’ve never said they were not worn. Just not issued by the war office/MOD apart from that undoubtedly short experiment (going by the dates) that you’ve described. No one’s suggesting (including me) that slidered badges should be cast aside. They’re just as likely to have been worn in a guardsman’s headdress as those with loops. I hope that’s understood.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

You mustn’t conflate ‘original’ with ‘issue’. As I’ve tried to explain there’s a huge difference between the two. Badges were sold through unit sources for many decades. They provided a profit and enabled guardsmen to have more badges than they were entitled to by issue (publicly funded). I’ve never said they were not worn. Just not issued by the war office/MOD apart from that undoubtedly short experiment (going by the dates) that you’ve described. No one’s suggesting (including me) that slidered badges should be cast aside. They’re just as likely to have been worn in a guardsman’s headdress as those with loops. I hope that’s understood.

I get that Toby, cheers.
Andy

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Alan O

No true. For started the WG were issued with sliders and I have already posted a photo of my GG badge from the 1940s.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hp?albumid=230

Julian has located the s/p for the fixing. 1915 were with vertical shanks.