17th Lancer beret badge pick up at flea market

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

As far as I know berets wouldn't have been in use before 1939.

In training at the Royal Armoured Corps Training Centre we were taught to refer to the badge as a motto. If I remember correctly it was one of only two regiments in the army who didn't have a cap badge, the other being the Black Watch.

Realistically it is a badge, we all know that, but convention demands it be referred to as the Death or Glory motto. As for non cavalry soldiers not referring to it as such well really, what else would you expect from a pig except a grunt?

If you ain't cav you ain't. Simple as that.

And without REME all the cavalry are is infantry. :-)

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

And without REME all the cavalry are is infantry. :-)

And without the infantry we are lost because every other arm is there to support them. Tanks can take ground but they can't hold it.

[Lancer 17]

G'day Griff and others.

I have a chrome plated belt buckle with a chrome plated Motto with 2 N-S lugs, its firmly affixed to the plate with a verticle slider that is turned over at the top. Sorry its too well attached to take it off to photo. I have had this since the 70's I would think. I will photo and send to you and you can post it.

As for the subject motto I'd say its a cast copy of an old 17L Motto with ears, I think that its plain ugly and wouldnt want it in my collection.

As for when 17/21 L took to wearing this type of belt buckle I will go through my back regt journals and see what I can find and report back shortly.

Am very bussy with the RSL Museum this week, out most days this week and every day since the 24th April.

Regards

Phil.

[Dave Alexander]

Originally Posted by Mike H

It would be from whenever the plastic belt was issued from Dave.Plastic belt (white or black) with a chrome plate and wire fixing.The badge fitted centrally.

I'm grateful that I didn't have to suffer the indignity of having to wear a plastic belt. They tried to issue staybrite mottoes in 1964 but no one would wear them. At the same time they had name tags made up and sown on above the breast pocket on our combat jackets a la the US forces. We would scuff and dirty them to render them illegible so after about 6 months they were dropped. As for non-cav referring to it as a badge, that's how we told the difference between THEM and US.

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by Dave Alexander

I don't know when the Regt started wearing belt mottoes, but it was certainly post-'65 when I left. Before that we did not wear a belt with No 2 dress, stable belts (dark blue w/2 French grey stripes) had two leather straps with buckles on the left hand side and dress blues had a scarlet and gold belt with the same kind of straps.

G'day Dave

I have been through my back regimental journals and have come up with the following info.

Stable belts with white metal buckles with Mottos seem to have been introduced Circa 1975, there is photographic evidance in the 75, 76, 78 & 81 journals and also 95 (Nato in Cyprus) 96 & 99.

White plastic belts with white metal buckles and white metal cap Mottos first appear in the Sept 1978 in Blues, 80 in Blues, No 2's & jumpers, 82 no 2's, 83 No 2's, Lance Guard in Blues, & junior NCO's. 87 Lance Guard in Blues, 88 in shirt sleevs and also 96, 97 & 98.

The Military Modeling Special No 3 shows the QRL Regimental Provost staff in 1996 wearing jumpers with white belts, red brazzards on the left sleeve with R P and white metal cap Mottos. Three troopers wear black berets with Mottos on red shadows, the Corporal wears a red toped cap with a Motto, all men carry a stick. This photo is also shown in black and white in the QRL issue of regiment magazine (issue 20).

Regards

Phil.

[Unknownsoldier]

I have a motto made the same as the opening posters one... but it's got long lugs E/W instead of N/S... Will dig out later

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

Small point here would the 17th Lancers have actually worn a beret before 1922? Also although in the regiment and on this forum the badge is referred to as a Motto I can never recall it being referred to as such by non-cavalry soldiers.

G'day Remevmbea1

Re the 17th lancers wearing berets, the simple answer is No.

I have checked 4 regimental journals in the 1924 to 26 period, they were published quaterly, and there are only photos of men wearing Lance caps and peaked caps.

The 17/21st Lancers were a mounted regiment until 1938. They were posted to Meerut in India and the regimental journal for 1938 has a fold out photo of the last mounted parade at Meerut dated 4 Jan 1938 and the first mechanised parade dated 4 Jan 1939.

The 17/21st Lancers were at Cairo, Egypt from 1930, Sucunderabad, India from 1932 and Merut India from 1935 to 39. All photographs and cartoons in the 1938 &39 regimental journals show the men wearing sun helmets. The first photo showing berets being worn is in the April 1939 journal, however it is the RTC Carde and they are wearing RTC badges, not Mottos. A photo in the April 1939 journal shows the men with tanks and sun helmets can be seen clearly, this photo also appears in the ffrench Blake history referred to below .

The History of the 17th/21st Lancers 1922 to 1959 by Lt Col ffrench Blake shows a photo of Warrant Officers and Sergeants dated 1940 where most men are wearing side caps with Mottos and 5 wear peaked caps with Mottos. There is also a photograph of the men with their tanks waiting for inspection by HM King George vi, they are also wearing side caps with Mottos. The first photo showing a beret being worn is of Maj SL Buxton MC in his tank issuing orders at the battle of Cassino 11 in Italy in 1944 where he (and several others)was killed.

There were no journals issued during WW2, all journals post 1946 show the beret being worn.

I hope that this helps

Regards

Phil.

[Hussar100]

Berets started to be issued to the Cavalry of the Line in 1939 as they switched to the Royal Armoured Corps. They didn't appear universally as some regiments were slower to adopt them than others. One of the main factors encouraging crews to wear them was the fact that headphones sat better on them than they did with other distinctive hats.

[Mike_2817]

Berets were first introduced by Major-General Sir Hugh Elles, the then (Royal) Tank Corps Colonel, who realised this style of headdress would be a practical option for his tank crews, working in confined spaces.

He was influenced at the end of WWI by the 70th Chasseurs Alpines, who wore a black beret at the time, but thought, that the beret was "too sloppy" and that the Basque-style beret of the French tank crews "too skimpy", so a compromise Black Beret based on the Scottish tam o'shanter was designed and submitted for the approval of their Colonel-in-Chief, King George V in November 1923. and was adopted in March 1924. This design was the basis for all later British berets.