17th AND 21st Lancers Victorian Plates

[Peter Brydon]

Has anyone had any actual dealings with Graham Lay ( who I think is the man who wear the Blue Peter badge on the Antiques Road Show ) ?

He never seems to come over as being particularly knowledge and I always get the impression he is making it up as he goes along but I am probably completely wrong.

P.B.

[Aerowallah]

Had a request for more angles...

[Aerowallah]

[Aerowallah]

[Aerowallah]

[Aerowallah]

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by Aerowallah

Thanks for your comments, Phil. If I read you right, you are comparing design elements on this plate to other period/pattern plates. Has anyone seen another example of the 1846-55 "Crimean" pattern plate to enable an apples to apples comparison?

G'day Aerowallah

Firstly Im sorry for being so slow to get back to you, however I have been through my extensive reference collection and am now in a position to add further to the above post.

Please do not think that I am a "nay sayer' as I only make comments based on Mottos/badges in my posession or based on photographic evidance.

First things first, I have now located the regimental history by Lt Col ffrench Blake of the 17th/21st Lancers of 1968 which gives a full list of postings, the 21st Lancers were posted as follows following 1895 up to amalgamation, 1896 Egypt & Soudan, 1899 Home service, 1916 North West Frontier (India). Detachment to France & Flanders, 1921 Home service & disbanded.

Now Re your helmet plates, I have in fact found 3 photographs of your helmet plate on lance caps, they could all be of the same cap. One is a very fury black and white but the other 2 are good colour photos and the plate can be seen quite clearly. It is worn with a white horse hair plume.

They clearly show the crown of the skull going up into the scroll above which has a big curve in it. The OR GLORY scroll goes over the lower ends of the bones and the scroll has squared ends with vertical rows of dots as in the current Motto. The rayed plate has the rays going down to the bottom of the plate. So I have no hesertation in saying that it is a good one. I'm very pleased for you and just a bit jealous ! I'd like to own both the 17th and 21st Lancers plates. Very well done. also your photos of the plates are really great.

I hope that this info will help.

Regards

Phil.

[mac mcconnell]

They are special and I could look at them all day, great to see Phil came up trumps on the Historical and factual side.
These things get harder to find but what a joy when found and shown.

Rgs Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Hi all
Doing my daily sweep on ebay last night both plates for sale.

Mac

[Aerowallah]

Thank you Mac--and Phil very much for the research. Sorry to respond so late but my bag is Zeppelins and I am rarely on here. Yes, I have listed both plates by now on eBay, and to deafening silence -- makes me think those of us over 50 will have mixed success deaccessioning all our treasures to the next generations of collectors. Rgds

[Aerowallah]

Just an update. Yesterday Roy Butler confirmed he will sell these plates in the Wallis & Wallis Connoiseur Sale -- October 13, 14. Regards.

[Aerowallah]

Another update to the ongoing saga.

At the last minute, 3 months after accepting the plates, Roy Butler emailed me that they will not go on sale.

A cataloguer had a problem with their "oxidisation". He compared my two plates to the seven plates up now on Wallis & Wallis and was not "happy" with differences in "oxidisation".

I took a look online and the 7 plates look like they have been cleaned to within an inch of their lives. I have no opinion as to their originality.

When did experts start focussing on tarnish and not the underlying piece? Are my plates too dirty or too clean? Doesn't that depend on who cleaned them in the past and their conditions of storage? Do the auction houses now lack the expertise to evaluate pieces themselves? No reply from W & W so far.

These are the best provenanced pieces I have ever owned, including the DVD of Roy's colleague Graham Lay praising the 17th in close-up on Roadshow. Plus, the previous owner said he bought the 21st from Roy Butler in 2009 at the Walter Lambert sale.

Does anyone have the catalogue to confirm this 21st plate was in the sale?

Any thoughts as to what is going on? Can't think any of this is good for the hobby. No one will enter it and take all of this history off our hands if the objective criteria for evaluating pieces is this ridiculously arcane. $5,000 Zeppelin badges are a cakewalk by comparison.

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Aerowallah
I was at the sale yesterday and the plates were in a normal condition I picked up a few in the bidding and they are all fine. I had a good look at them all.
I believe that the owner is a big collector of Lancer Headgear I am sorry I was not able to see your plates its a shame it took so long for Wallis and Wallis to tell you they would not sell them so they must have given them a very close inspection as they loose money on Commission I am sure its a decision not taken lightly.

Rgs Mac

[Aerowallah]

Mac, does the tarnish on mine look odd or suspicious compared with the plates you inspected?

Roy Butler inspected these three months ago and accepted them. In his recent email he refers to his cataloguer's problem with tarnish. I know collectors who clean everything, so does that sound like a close or infallible inspection?

In fact, he asked me for further information suggesting he might include these in a future sale. I referred him to detailed letters of provenance which name every previous owner and the DVD which no one at W&W had looked at or followed up on.

So all in all not a satisfactory experience.

There are several people on this forum and in the UK who will buy these now if I get a seal of approval from one of three whose average age must now be in their late seventies. That is the definition of a moribund and arcane (known only to a few) hobby!

That's why I respect the labours of everyone on this forum to increase the knowledge. I am just surprised no one here can render a confident opinion. On my WW1 forums everyone is an expert!!!

Rgds

[mac mcconnell]

Aerowallah.

I think of late many auction houses and dealers are super careful with Czapka plates. I am no expert I have only been collecting a short time. I have been given plenty of advice.
I was shown some fakes some while back at the Regimental Museum and they all had this much darker staining between the lower areas of the guilt backing plate. Its very hard to remove its some sort of combo mix with Fire grate blackener I am led to believe.

Your 17th plate seems to have this and I can only comment from a photo ,the 12th Lancers 1840 plate at Wallis and Wallis did not, but then again its almost £2000.00 pounds cheaper, then a plate from such a prestigious Regiment.
I hope you have success they are beautiful plates.

Mac