25th Hussars / 26th Dragoons badges

[Gurkha]

Not collecting cavalry badges for the last 40 years, here’s one that wouldn’t get a second look and would end up in the scrap bin. A pretty feeble repro you may say.

However, this came from an uncle of mine who was drafted into this unit from the 3rd DG whilst serving in India, when it was formed in WWII. He was a NCO and was amongst the first to help set up this unit.

This was in fact the badge he was issued with in the first weeks of the infant 25th Dragoons.. apparnently the CO didn’t like them wearing their parent regt cap badges. So he had a batch made up locally before offical ones arrived. This hadn’t seen the light of day since 1946 until he gave it to me as a kid.

Just for your interest.

Steve

[Mike]

Amazing. bit of an "eye-opener" as they say.

[Gurkha]

I only post that to show that without records or provinance so much is unknown as the old soldiers die and take that knowledge with them.

Steve

[Deejayuu]

Steve,
if i had not seen the picture i would have doubted this badges existance. Much appreciated the pictures and the abckground info. Suppose its another badge to go on the wants list, just after the hens teeth!
Cheers, Dave

[Paddy]

Hello All

I have been sorting out a lot of my badges recently and have a few which I would appreciate some 2nd opinions on. I have my own thoughts on the originality of these badges but would like to see what others think before finally making up my mind. I have put a similar post on the Infantry side as well.

As usual, many thanks in advance.

Paddy

[2747andy]

Paddy,
flash makes them look very bright, the 13/18th has the correct depression to the rear of the central banner, is there a makers mark behind the slider? (see previous threads on 13/18 Huss). The 12th Lancers just does not look right from the back, I would liked to have seen sweat holes either round to the two outher feather backe or a thin horizontal one behind the slider. Your 25th Dgns looks cast from the front, I would expect a slider fitting? It could be a locally produced badge/collar?

Andy

[Paddy]

Andy

Many thanks for your comments. The 13/18th is the one I had least concerns over. Unfortunately it does not have a makers mark under the slider (I do have a KC gilt version with Firmin in the depression but it is brooched). The 12th Lancers looks good from the front but agree with what you say about the flat back, could it be a later strike?. As for the 25th Dragoons, still waiting to be persuaded either way.

Many thanks again

Paddy

[2747andy]

Paddy,
your 12th Lancers could be a later strike or IMO more likely a restrike. I'd look for one with sweat holes and then get rid!! Your 25th Dgns looks awful (so could be OK LOL!).

Andy

[Paddy]

Andy

Many thanks again. I don't think I can disagree with what you've said which is why I'm looking out for a 12th badge and the reason I am still hopeful for the 25th is that it looks a lot worse than the modern restrikes.

Paddy

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by Paddy

Andy

Many thanks again. I don't think I can disagree with what you've said which is why I'm looking out for a 12th badge and the reason I am still hopeful for the 25th is that it looks a lot worse than the modern restrikes.

Paddy

Hi Paddy

I thought you might like to see these 12th Lancers badges both of which came from a big sack of badges, destined for destruction, in the Quartermaster's store at the Royal Armoured Corps Centre, Bovington, Dorset, in 1960. I was on a long course at the Centre at that time and persuaded the QM to part with these before the rest went to the crusher!
There are no sweatholes behind the pennons. They are nevertheless very genuine.
The major difference between these and yours is the fastening between the crown and the lances. I am not convinced that yours is wrong because of that but it is not supported by the photographs and drawings in Alderton, Kipling and King, Edwards, Gaylor and Wilkinson.

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

Gordon,

Great badges and they do suggest that the q/c versions are indeed all wrong?

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Gordon,

Great badges and they do suggest that the q/c versions are indeed all wrong?

Hi Alan

A good point well made! As you so rightly point out some, if not all, 12L qc cap badges have the crown attached to the pennons in the same way as Paddy's. See photographs. Obviously the design was changed including that of the officer's. I regret I know not why other than a change of manufacturer, perhaps the same one that made Paddy's badge! I invite views.
Before I get lots of flak about these I accept that the ORs bim badge looks a bit iffy!!

Best wishes

Gordon

[Paddy]

Hi Gordon

Many thanks for your comments and pictures. Unfortunately I am no further forward, don't you just love badge collecting. I'm now asking the same question again as to whether it is a late version made just prior to the QC version being struck. I have checked Gaylors & K&K and as you say, they are both solid joins between the crown and lances. Is it just a manufacturers variation, why go to the trouble of voiding/piercing the join if it is a restrike? My badge certainly looks very similar to your 2 KC badges with the exception of that area around the crown and lances. I think I will hang on to it for now but also look for a version with sweat holes and solid join between the crown and lances.

Many thanks again

Paddy

[2747andy]

I don't think the QC pattern badges are "Wrong", I just think they reverted back to the 1st "Lances" pattern badge, with no evidence to prove my theory, just the badges below. On changing from the POW Plumes pattern badge in 1903, I am certain that the 21st lancers post 1901 pattern had some influence on the design the 12th adopted for their 1st pattern. Shown below is, what I believe is a 1903 issue badge, sweat holes and lugs and very similar to the badge of the 21st (small crown attached by thin bars in both instances). This design would have been fine, if lugs had stayed and not been replaced by sliders soon after. I think that on the introduction of sliders, this style of "Bar Fixing" would not have been robust enough and the strain of flexing the slider for fitting to headdress would have resulted in a lot of broken badges? Hence the reason for changing to a larger crown or the side of the crown fused to the lances on both of it's sides? I think the QC badges were an attempt to mimic the original pattern hoping that a change in manufacturing techniques would provide sturdier badges? These are my assumptions only and as I said at the top of this post just a theory! I also believe that the 12th reverted back to lugs (2 N&S) later, as genuine KC badges of this construction are also found.

Andy

Picture 1 - post 1903 pattern

Picture 2 - Rear post 1903 pattern

Picture 3 - 1901 Pattern 21st L (for comparison)

Picture 4 - 1901 21st L rear

Picture 5 - Slidered 12th L (post 1906?)

Picture 6 - Rear of slidered 12th L

[QOSY]

Hi Andy
would this be a post 1903 with slider then?
Jim