Household Cavalry Regiment (from 1992 to present)

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bill

Here is a photograph of a genuine RHG cap star as in the 1900 and 1904 Officers Dress Regs.

There may be many more of these around (and 1LG versions) as I bought this as a "fire damaged" Coldstream Guards WO star. For "fire damaged" read black tarnish.

Bill

That's a super rare survivor Bill, thanks for posting it. Interestingly the two regiments both wore the badges in DRs on the Torin style field cap.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

I think a robust discussion is good, healthy and often productive.

Absolutely, the historical background and records are of great importance and interest to me and I’m sure many others Toby. I for one certainly appreciate your contributions so please be assured my response is meant in a constructive way only to help establish what actually happened in practice and is not a criticism of historians or the records.



The way I read the above sounded like a statement of fact that 1LG and 2LG wore G&E badges.

Accompanied with the demo pics it suggested to me they were examples of these badges when they weren’t. That was the basis of my response in post #10 born from a concern the two together could lead to an assumption by a reader that the badges pictured were what to look for. Obviously I see you’ve clarified this in post #11 in that your intention was to leave it for collectors to decide and they were for demo purposes only.



I have never seen a period photo or painting of a 1LG or 2LG cap badge in G&E. Additionally as mentioned earlier I’ve never seen a badge I would consider genuine, all are from the Martin Marsh repro stable nicely demonstrated by Wharton Militaria. Therefore I imagine your source comes down to a written record of some description?

I take your point that numbers of these G&E badges would be relatively low but these regiments and their well-to-do officers are certainly very well photographed and painted due to their ceremonial roles and the prestige element. This I feel would counterbalance numbers somewhat.

My honest belief is that 1LG and 2LG did not wear G&E badges as a matter of course. But as I said I’d love to be proved wrong. If I ever am proved wrong (by a period photo or a genuine badge emerging) I feel confident in saying such a badge will be the ‘exception to’ rather than ‘the rule’ itself as to what was worn in practice, even though the ‘exception’ may be commensurate with orders and documentation.

An example that springs to mind is the documentation unearthed by Julian (KLR) which suggests for a brief period that infantry regiments with badges ordered in all GM also had this extended to their TF Battalions. Clearly for some this did happen in practice like the Essex Reg and Northants, but, I am certain not for others such as the scroll-less Leicestershire Reg and blank scroll East Lancs. I think I’m correct in saying there may even be numbers ordered attached to these.

Ultimately there are certain facets to this hobby where the individual collector has to decide what they believe. In a way is perhaps it’s one of our hobby’s charms? But in order to reach the best informed decision it’s important to know as much information, physical, photographic/painting, documents, orders, regulations and their source as possible to balance all sides of a debate and see which one we feel most comfortable coming down on.

Luke and Frank,

Apologies for the delayed reply. I understand your desire for absolute concrete proof, but I'm afraid I cannot provide that. I haven't been a collector for many years now, and have no interest in reproductions of original badges, but for a long time I have studied uniforms and insignia. That is my deep and abiding interest.

In the mid 1980s I was on duty in London District and in return for a favour I was given permission to go to Windsor and spend a few hours of down time in the Household Cavalry Museum in Combermere Barracks. It wasn't as good then as it is now, and had just a few displays, and not very many visitors, but I was allowed to look at some stuff from the reserve collection and the photographic archive. It was pre-internet of course and I just took some handwritten notes, as I looked at what I could, especially the wonderful photos with a linen tester. I paraphrased from those few notes what I posted earlier.

Looking again at the dates that I noted down, there were apparently no badges on the men's SD caps until 1914, and they had to be rushed into service in time for mobilisation. The officers had badges on their SD, but none on their coloured forage caps. SNCOs on the regimental staff and the band also had coloured forage caps with no badges, but all the other ranks were still wearing pill box caps in that order of undress, so it would have seemed a right hotch potch to anyone outside the HC.

Against 1919, I've noted that the remaining ranks were at last issued coloured forage caps and discarded their much loved pillbox caps. In 1922, the 1st and 2nd Life Guards merged and adopted a modified badge with 1st and 2nd inscribed on the bottom of the circlet. The men wore these same, SD cap badges, on their new coloured caps. There was no sealed pattern date, but it was apparently also in 1919 that the officers started to wear enameled badges, the first time they had worn badges on undress headdress. I made just two more notes, it was 1928 before the 1st and 2nd inscriptions were dropped and 'The' substituted, and last of all a suggestion that the circlet style enameled badges 'might' have been either, trial badges, or perhaps more likely superior badges for SNCOs on the regimental staff, rather like those worn by Foot Guards of equivalent rank. This was a suggestion by the archivist, a rather elderly retired member of the regiment, but there were no photos showing this, or any other evidence. I had completely forgotten this last aspect, so make of it what you will.

I don't really have anything more to add.

[Frank Kelley]

Drew,
Yes, things sadly came to that, in 1991 the Secretary of State, at the MOD, Tom King, made it happen, with cuts across the board, but, the two Colonels wanted to make absolutely sure that the position of the mounted regiment should not be affected and thankfully this was accepted.
In addition, by June, the MOD also agreed that both regiments would retain their identities, their uniforms, their customs and associations on the agreement that a union to form one regiment of two sabre squadrons each as well as the headquarters element must take place.
The Life Guards finally returned home in October 1992 and union with the Blues and Royals took place at Combermere Barracks, I certainly can't speak for the Blues, but, I can tell you there was many a Life Guard who was hoping it would be merely a temporary arrangement.
I well remember the rumours had started in 1990 and the MOD had to be dissuaded from making things public because so many soldiers were on active service in the Gulf.

They do all wear the HCR badge on their forage caps and yes, as mentioned, regimental identities are retained.

Regarding joining, certainly in my day for the ranker, you simply walked into the nearest careers office, sat the written exam, you were then presented with a list of jobs you were deemed suitable for, if you had O Level English Language grade C or above, some pressure was often applied to at least consider the RAMC, normally with the promise of "you still get a gun" as there was a shortage of combat medical technicians
Up towards the top of the mentioned list there would be Household Cavalry RAC and Household Cavalry Dutyman this latter being public duties with the mounted squadron.
Your preference regarding regiment would be taken into consideration, but, certainly from memory, was not absolutely guaranteed.
These days that choice of either armour or public duties is no longer available and no matter how much of a petrol head you might be, you will end up coming face to face with Dobbin sooner rather than later.

Originally Posted by Britbadge

The current Household Cavalry Regiment (from 1992 to present) is made up of two former regiments; the Blues and Royals and the Life Guards.


Q: Do they all wear the common HCR cap badge?

From what I understand, the ceremonial (mounted) units still wear the Blues and Royals and also the Life Guards uniforms.

When one joins the Army, do you select to serve in the Household Cavalry, the Blues and Royals or the Life Guards??

Thanks,

Drew

[CAM]

I found the discussion here very interesting when I read it but put it to the back of my mind as I do not have the knowledge to comment.

I have just read this article (see thumbnail) and wondered if the last sentence added anything of value.

Yours Aye

Chris

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Luke and Frank,

Apologies for the delayed reply. I understand your desire for absolute concrete proof, but I'm afraid I cannot provide that. I haven't been a collector for many years now, and have no interest in reproductions of original badges, but for a long time I have studied uniforms and insignia. That is my deep and abiding interest.

In the mid 1980s I was on duty in London District and in return for a favour I was given permission to go to Windsor and spend a few hours of down time in the Household Cavalry Museum in Combermere Barracks. It wasn't as good then as it is now, and had just a few displays, and not very many visitors, but I was allowed to look at some stuff from the reserve collection and the photographic archive. It was pre-internet of course and I just took some handwritten notes, as I looked at what I could, especially the wonderful photos with a linen tester. I paraphrased from those few notes what I posted earlier.

Looking again at the dates that I noted down, there were apparently no badges on the men's SD caps until 1914, and they had to be rushed into service in time for mobilisation. The officers had badges on their SD, but none on their coloured forage caps. SNCOs on the regimental staff and the band also had coloured forage caps with no badges, but all the other ranks were still wearing pill box caps in that order of undress, so it would have seemed a right hotch potch to anyone outside the HC.

Against 1919, I've noted that the remaining ranks were at last issued coloured forage caps and discarded their much loved pillbox caps. In 1922, the 1st and 2nd Life Guards merged and adopted a modified badge with 1st and 2nd inscribed on the bottom of the circlet. The men wore these same, SD cap badges, on their new coloured caps. There was no sealed pattern date, but it was apparently also in 1919 that the officers started to wear enameled badges, the first time they had worn badges on undress headdress. I made just two more notes, it was 1928 before the 1st and 2nd inscriptions were dropped and 'The' substituted, and last of all a suggestion that the circlet style enameled badges 'might' have been either, trial badges, or perhaps more likely superior badges for SNCOs on the regimental staff, rather like those worn by Foot Guards of equivalent rank. This was a suggestion by the archivist, a rather elderly retired member of the regiment, but there were no photos showing this, or any other evidence. I had completely forgotten this last aspect, so make of it what you will.

I don't really have anything more to add.

[Frank Kelley]

The final paragraph is a reference to the Forage cap badge worn by both regiments, then as now.

Originally Posted by CAM

I found the discussion here very interesting when I read it but put it to the back of my mind as I do not have the knowledge to comment.

I have just read this article (see thumbnail) and wondered if the last sentence added anything of value.

Yours Aye

Chris

[grenadierguardsman]

I wonder how long the badge Bill has shown ( the one in 1900 Dress Regs ) was actually worn for ? And why it was binned ? Then a period of having no badge was adopted, until King George V gave them one ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I wonder how long the badge Bill has shown ( the one in 1900 Dress Regs ) was actually worn for ? And why it was binned ? Then a period of having no badge was adopted, until King George V gave them one ?
Andy

The badge Bill refers to was worn only on the field service cap by officers, Andy. Unusually the other ranks wore shoulder titles on their version. It was just the forage cap that had no badge, for all ranks, as per the photos that I posted. Within the HC that was not initially seen as odd, because ORs had long worn the previous pill box cap with no badge, as had the officers with their ‘round forage cap’ (as it was designated in DRs) worn until around 1904.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by CAM

I found the discussion here very interesting when I read it but put it to the back of my mind as I do not have the knowledge to comment.

I have just read this article (see thumbnail) and wondered if the last sentence added anything of value.

Yours Aye

Chris

Thank you Chris, I do find that interesting, as it chimes with the remarks made to me in Combermere Barracks mentioned above. Personally I don’t accept that the enamelled badges inscribed with 1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards are spurious, they seem typical to me of the slightly lesser quality provided at public expense, but nonetheless with a very rich appearance compared to those of the ranks below WO. Added together with the circumstances of time span, mergers, etc. and the relatively limited numbers of those (WO) ranks involved that I’ve described, very few would have been produced, hence their manifest rarity.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The badge Bill refers to was worn only on the field service cap by officers, Andy. Unusually the other ranks wore shoulder titles on their version. It was just the forage cap that had no badge, for all ranks, as per the photos that I posted. Within the HC that was not initially seen as odd, because ORs had long worn the previous pill box cap with no badge, as had the officers with their ‘round forage cap’ (as it was designated in DRs) worn until around 1904.

Ok Toby, did'nt realise that. Ive got one somewhere, i would have brought it thinking it was Coldstream Guards. I'll try and dig it out.
Andy

[Frank Kelley]

Sorry could you please clarify, reading this, are you now suggesting that these badges were only worn by Warrant Officers?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Thank you Chris, I do find that interesting, as it chimes with the remarks made to me in Combermere Barracks mentioned above. Personally I don’t accept that the enamelled badges inscribed with 1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards are spurious, they seem typical to me of the slightly lesser quality provided at public expense, but nonetheless with a very rich appearance compared to those of the ranks below WO. Added together with the circumstances of time span, mergers, etc. and the relatively limited numbers of those (WO) ranks involved that I’ve described, very few would have been produced, hence their manifest rarity.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Personally I don’t accept that the enamelled badges inscribed with 1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards are spurious, they seem typical to me of the slightly lesser quality provided at public expense, but nonetheless with a very rich appearance compared to those of the ranks below WO.

If you are referring to the G&E 1LG, 2LG and RHG badges you showed in post #7 they are products of the Martin Marsh fake dies. There is no doubt or debate. They are fakes and their lesser quality is because they are in fact of very modern manufacture.

The badge shown in post #10 is a genuine G&E RHG badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Sorry could you please clarify, reading this, are you now suggesting that these badges were only worn by Warrant Officers?

Yes that’s what I’m suggesting based on what I was told and the article posted by Chris. I had previously thought that those with unit titles were officers badges but thinking about the regimental tradition at that time of just the other rank pattern forage cap badge having the regimental title (1st and 2nd etc) it would make sense for an enamelled version for warrant officers to follow suit. Just as with Foot Guards there is always a difference retained between the officers and other ranks badges. I realise that you don’t accept this and you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

If you are referring to the G&E 1LG, 2LG and RHG badges you showed in post #7 they are products of the Martin Marsh fake dies. There is no doubt or debate. They are fakes and their lesser quality is because they are in fact of very modern manufacture.

The badge shown in post #10 is a genuine G&E RHG badge.

I don’t know any details of Martin Marsh, or the fakes that you refer to. There are fakes made of all kinds of badges. I am just suggesting that it’s entirely conceivable that the Household Cavalry regiments of that time might have adopted enamelled badges for their warrant officers and that they could well have borne regimental titles as per the versions worn on drab khaki service dress caps. I imagine that the way fakers make serious money is to research a rare badge and then copy it.

[Frank Kelley]

If you read the article posted by Chris, the final paragraph actually refers to a single badge worn by all the regiments with the royal cypher and the garter scroll in gilt and enamel for both warrant officers and officers.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes that’s what I’m suggesting based on what I was told and the article posted by Chris. I had previously thought that those with unit titles were officers badges but thinking about the regimental tradition at that time of just the other rank pattern forage cap badge having the regimental title (1st and 2nd etc) it would make sense for an enamelled version for warrant officers to follow suit. Just as with Foot Guards there is always a difference retained between the officers and other ranks badges. I realise that you don’t accept this and you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

If you read the article posted by Chris, the final paragraph actually refers to a single badge worn by all the regiments with the royal cypher and the garter scroll in gilt and enamel for both warrant officers and officers.

And I am suggesting that the badge worn by warrant officers actually had regimental titles on the circlet. Based on all other forms of officers and other ranks insignia and horse furniture, It makes sense that the the warrant officers insignia was different from officers, but with some similarities, just as with Foot Guards. Conversely, it would be completely unprecedented for the warrant officers to wear exactly the same pattern of badge as the officers. It is easy to see how two types of badge, similarly enamelled, might be confused when recorded in unofficial documentation like articles in a military historical society periodical or bulletin.