"Georgian crown/GR" buttons- ID please

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

If the button was produced between 1897-1903, with GR that is strange.
Andy

Hello Andy

Yes, strange indeed but I think the general view is that although this particular 'GR' button with a "Pitt & Co 31 Maddox St London" backmark was produced between about 1897-1903 it was a restrike of an earlier Georgian period button using the original die held by Pitt & Co (even though the die may not have been made by them originally but by a company they took over!).


The problem is that we don't know for sure the identity of the original Georgian period button - military, civil, court, livery and so on. Nor do we know why Pitt produced a restrike of this button.

Roger

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello Andy

Yes, strange indeed but I think the general view is that although this particular 'GR' button with a "Pitt & Co 31 Maddox St London" backmark was produced between about 1897-1903 it was a restrike of an earlier Georgian period button using the original die held by Pitt & Co (even though the die may not have been made by them originally but by a company they took over!).


The problem is that we don't know for sure the identity of the original Georgian period button - military, civil, court, livery and so on. Nor do we know why Pitt produced a restrike of this button.

Roger

Roger,

According to Bn.s research we do know for whom they made it:-

"The entry number of the Pitt sample book is No. 169
The title is Grenadier Gd."

That cannot be disputed.

regards

[GTB]

No. 169 described as 'Grenadier Gd.' Why not 'Grenadier Gds.' ? Are there any other 'normal' buttons to the Grenadier Guards in the Pitt sample book? If so, how are they described?
I have my doubts that it is military as a crowned cypher could be anything but if it is, in fact, as Pitt says, then could it not possibly be a mufti button or even an early blazer button?

Just my musings outside the box.

GTB

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Roger,

According to Bn.s research we do know for whom they made it:-

"The entry number of the Pitt sample book is No. 169
The title is Grenadier Gd."

That cannot be disputed.

regards

Hello Simon

I am not disputing what is written in the Pitt book, all I am suggesting is that there must be a possibility, no matter how remote, that at some point in time a button was removed and lost and another put in its place and thus the identification is no longer correct.

What I think we do know for sure (and I stand to be corrected) is that this is not a regulation pattern button for the Grenadier Guards. That being so what would it have been for if intended for the Grenadier Guards? A mufti button is a possibility as is a blazer button (both as GTB suggested) as neither of these were covered by regulations. However, it seems odd to me that the Grenadier Guards would have gone with this design in 1897. I would have expected the then current Royal Cypher and/or a grenade in one form or another.

As btns suggested it may have been produced for a pageant, parade, Royal Tournament or something similar and was just intended to represent a Grenadier Guards button.

It's all a mystery which is what makes this sort of thing so fascinating!

Roger

[charlie962]

I thought btns's suggestion of a pageant restrike very interesting.I was not aware of the attention to detail of the re-enactment groups of that period. Who knows?

To answer btns query on the shank of the small button I showed, it is of round profile, then splayed out and brazed to the back of the unnamed button. I note that the large (restrike) has round profile but the ends are brazed direct to the back of the button (hope that makes sense)

btns, is your 'original' a one or two part button?

charlie

[btns]

Originally Posted by GTB

No. 169 described as 'Grenadier Gd.' Why not 'Grenadier Gds.' ? Are there any other 'normal' buttons to the Grenadier Guards in the Pitt sample book? If so, how are they described?
I have my doubts that it is military as a crowned cypher could be anything but if it is, in fact, as Pitt says, then could it not possibly be a mufti button or even an early blazer button?

Just my musings outside the box.

GTB

It says in fact "Grenadier Gds" - I remembered I also had a picture of the entire page (made by a staff member of the auctioneer upon request by a friend). The "s" is on the separator line and was not on the detail picture.
I have now also requested the copyright holder for permission to reproduce his pictures.

[btns]

I have been given permission to reproduce images. Thank you Mick.


I am also going to find earlier threads and add pictures.
Hopefully it will end a few hard to eradicate false identities.

[charlie962]

btns
Did those pattern books get fully copied before being broken up? Were they unique or did that sort of thing end up with each major military outfitter, Clearly a priceless record. Not having been on the Forum or even looking at buttons at that date of dispersal I am unaware of the history. Very interesting, Thanks.
Charlie

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by btns

I have been given permission to reproduce images. Thank you Mick.


I am also going to find earlier threads and add pictures.
Hopefully it will end a few hard to eradicate false identities.

Its most probably a mistake, it happens. But i can't see that it has anything to do with the Grenadier Guards. IMHO. Thanks for showing it though.
Andy

[btns]

Originally Posted by charlie962

btns
Did those pattern books get fully copied before being broken up? Were they unique or did that sort of thing end up with each major military outfitter, Clearly a priceless record. Not having been on the Forum or even looking at buttons at that date of dispersal I am unaware of the history. Very interesting, Thanks.
Charlie

Hi Charlie,

I think there are two types of such books. The first type is for 'keeping records' and the second type are sample books and cards which are sent out to resellers to help them secure orders. Sample uniform button books often hold 'old stock' or general design buttons. Fashion button manufacturers may have sent out stock cards with complete series for that year.

Button manufacters held pattern books with die numbers and customer names, e.g. Morton & Meyer. Big companies such as this Morton & Meyer may have created similar books for their own record keeping.

The image was taken from one of three books saved from a skip by a worker at a button factory in the 1960s. They ended up at auction in Ipswich (I think in 2009) and were won by two commercial parties.
You can find information on the Gaunt Archive in old threads on this forum and on the DNW website:
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...lection_id=104
I do not think the museum recorded the information before sending them off to auction. Auctioneers sell items on behalf of their clients and present them as good as they can.

The surprise is that the Ipswich books have been documented by their buyers / e-bay resellers. Both did their best to submit as much information to the collecting word as they could.
Part of the Gaunt Collection was purchased by Mr. Lew Shotton. He put as much as he could on e-bay and later shared his records with Kev Woodward.
You can find most of them here:
https://sites.google.com/site/liverybuttonsidentified/

To summarise: It is up to collectors to document their collectables.
Museums do not have the manpower nor the interest.

I hope this answers your questions.

[btns]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Its most probably a mistake, it happens. But i can't see that it has anything to do with the Grenadier Guards. IMHO. Thanks for showing it though.
Andy

Nope. These books are accurate and solid. They have not been put together by dealers, experts or collectors, but by people manufacturing these articles and to get the correct die from store for followup orders.

[charlie962]

What an extraordinary sale- once in a lifetime! many thanks for the links. Charlie

edit Makes you weep. Invaluable documentary evidence lost for ever. Cannnot museums even bother to get a photographic record preserved for future research? I've looked now at some of the other threads on the break-up of archives and the disposals by museums. Terrifying that this sort of activity is increasing with funding reductions, museum mergers, closure etc.
Not to be hypocritical but I probably benefited from a few minor items back in the 70's!

[charlie962]

Here's another pattern book being broken up, this time a Paris maker.

I wonder whether the holder is keeping a record?
Charlie
buttons AM Paris pattern book1.jpg buttons AM Paris pattern book2.jpg

[btns]

Originally Posted by charlie962

Here's another pattern book being broken up, this time a Paris maker.

I wonder whether the holder is keeping a record?
Charlie
Attachment 162682 Attachment 162683

It would be a pleasant surprise if he stepped beyond the documented sale of items he purchased to finance his collecting hobby.

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Just a few thoughts regarding these buttons, although I can't really add anything re the Pitt versions. I have several examples of the "original" crown/GR cypher buttons. Alll are open back coatee size, most are gilt, one or two are silver plate. All different early English & Irish backmarks. The crown is much the same on all of them although the cypher varies considerably between different makers. None of the cyphers are 100% identical to that on the Pitt buttons. Dixon Pickup thinks these are generic Volunteer (or possibly in some cases Militia) buttons c. late 1790's - early 1800's. This makes sense to me.

I just have two examples of the later Pitt button - one is a large size identical to that in the original post. The other is a small size with "Pitt & Co London" backmark.

I thought they were reproductions meant to represent a general idea of a Georgian military button - perhaps for a pageant as suggested or something similar.

The Grenadier Gds annotation from the pattern book is very interesting though. A George III period Grenadier Guards button was a similar pattern, at least it was a crown/GR cypher, although the cypher was of a more ornate pattern. So, perhaps the buttons were meant to represent early Grenadier Gds buttons specifically. It's even possible that the buttons were ordered by the Grenadier Guards for some reason as a private purchase from unit funds? I like the Mess Waiters idea but unlikely, if they date from c.1897-1903 why would they have a "GR" cypher?

Also interesting that the next button in the pattern book is Coldstream Gds - what sounds to be some kind of mufti or blazer button.

David

PS.... forgot to mention ... I think the original "large" button which "btns" shows in post 10 probably is a court button of some kind.