what rank or appointment is this jacket

[mac mcconnell]

I have this 16th Jacket, but I cant work out the rank or appointment other then the band trumpet major that is also a farrier staff sergeant any one help.
the first 3 pictures are the right arm the forth is the left and only has the crown and 3 tapes on it

[colin 17]

It must be for demonstrations or something as there shouldn't ever be a reason for this. Awesome looking though! Colin

[badgecollector]

agree with colin
cant think of any time this would apply but its an awesome looking uniform
bc

[irish]

I do not have anything to add towards identifying this piece but it is a really nice looking jacket, thanks for posting

[Postwarden]

I'm probably being thick but isn't the spur the badge of a Riding Instructor?

So why can't the Trumpet Major also be a Riding Instructor?

Can someone enlighten me please?

Jon

[colin 17]

Yes it is the rough riders badge indicating a riding instructor. As to whether he could be both, I doubt as both are rather busy jobs and wouldn't be able to do both. Ive never seen a tunic (so far) with a bandsman/trumpeter with other trade badges on it, but I assume it could happen.
Mac, are you going to leave it like that of remove some badges to make it "normal"?
Colin

[AndyC_65]

Originally Posted by colin 17

Yes it is the rough riders badge indicating a riding instructor. As to whether he could be both, I doubt as both are rather busy jobs and wouldn't be able to do both. Ive never seen a tunic (so far) with a bandsman/trumpeter with other trade badges on it, but I assume it could happen.
Mac, are you going to leave it like that of remove some badges to make it "normal"?
Colin

Sorry Colin, I can't agree with your logic there.I was a telecommunications mechanic and also a qualified dog handler - both full time jobs if I'd done them both full time.

I can envisage a mounted band having a riding instructor within their ranks - especially when it came to riding a horse while banging two bloody great drums in their ears.

cheers,

Andy C

[davidwyke]

As already mentioned, it's definately Rough Rider (= Riding Instructor).

Certainly an unusual combination and probably unique for the regt but, as Andy says, not impossible.

If it was mine I would leave it exactly as it is.

David

[colin 17]

Hey, I did say it is possible, but unlikely. Show me where in any picture you see a bandsman with a trade badge other than band related. I collect trade badges and have looked at a hell of a lot of pictures and haven't seen any yet. If you think it possible then prove it.
The tunic is clearly made up as a demonstration piece. For one it has rank on both sleeves, this didn't happen in the Cavalry, two a SNCO in the 16th L had gold braid around the collar and possibly cuffs (cant see cuffs in the pictures I have).
I am a fully qualified Artilleryman and Armourer in the Canadian Army, I also do supply and driving duties so I do know it happens. Back in the Victorian/Edwardian era, I think not so much, and before anyone says it did, I do mean that they didn't wear a whole bunch of trade badges. So show me some pictures so we can all take a look.
Colin

[davidwyke]

I would agree with Colin in that it is unlikely but possible. I also can't recall seeing a photo of a Trumpet Major wearing badges other than band related but that doesn't mean it never happened.

Another thought, during the period in question (c.1902-1914), wouldn't he be a Squadron Sgt Major rather than Staff Sgt?

If that's the case I suppose that would make him a Squadron Sergeant Major Rough Rider/Trumpet Major!!!

Just as well that the 16L didn't wear regimental arm badges, he would have had badges the full length of his arm!

I don't think anyone is questioning your knowledge or expertise, Colin, or trying to cause offense. We are just expressing opinions not statements of fact.

David

[colin 17]

I never took any offence at all. I love this site and its discussions, the information that comes out is phenomenal.
I just wish that if posters come out with an idea, have something to back it up. Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen but just because things are done now dosnt mean they happened in the past. I would love to be proved wrong but show me a picture of a bandsmen with trade badges other than band. Im pretty sure I have seen the Red Cross badge for stretcher bearer and that certainly could apply to bandsmen.

Colin

[54Bty]

It is possibly that the jacket is a "Regimental Sealed Pattern", that is used to show the style of the Jacket and positioning of various badges that are worn. The reason for the use of the left sleeve could be to show the position of the chevrons and crown without any instructors badge between the two, not necessarily that they are worn on that sleeve.

Marc

[colin 17]

That's highly possible. The only thing I'm not keen on is how high the spur and crown are as it looks a lot higher than other pictures I have seen and uniforms in my collection. I suppose it could be a small tunic and they just didn't have a lot of room?

Colin

[mac mcconnell]

As i am knew to all of this and really have eyes for Czapka plates i omitted or did not know the relavance of a sealed patten which this is inside it has a tag with two seals on it i cant read the writting but it has 1906 visable . Thank you Marc for the explenation i take it they used the jacket as said for the position of rank to be approved.

Rgs Mac

[davidwyke]

Marc - you could have the answer there!

Colin - I agree that it's more usual to find the badges positioned a bit lower down. But if you have, or have access to, the two books on Cavalry arm badges (Seaman and Linaker & Dine) then there are several photos in each which show the badges starting virtually at shoulder level, as they are here.

David