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  #31  
Old 06-05-19, 06:59 AM
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Maybe these will help?

Phil. (The other one )
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  #32  
Old 06-05-19, 12:59 PM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Maybe these will help?

Phil. (The other one )
Yeh, alright mate, lets see what tomorrow brings !!

Regards Phil.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-19, 07:28 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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G'day Phil

The short answer is that you are right, again.

I have photographed the relevant pages from the good book and when Ive got them printed out and sorted I will do a detailed post.

Regards

"The other one"
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  #34  
Old 07-05-19, 09:35 AM
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Good O mate.
Phil.
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  #35  
Old 08-05-19, 12:43 PM
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Hi Michael, great discussion, thought this may help. I was a Regular and T A signaller and still have some of the signals training pamphlets. If I could quote from Infantry Training Volume 8 (1986), Pamphlet 41 Part 1, Chapter 6 Badges of Qualification 0628
The badges worn, with corresponding qualifications, are as follows:
a. Radio Users No badge
b. Standard 2 Crossed flags on left forearm
c. Standard 1 Crossed flags on right forearm
d. NCO's who graduate from RSI/ RSO Course at the Signal Wing with a pass: Crossed flags on right upper arm above chevrons for
NCO's, and for WOs on right arm below badge of rank.
e. Distinguished pass at RSI or Standard 1:
Star above the relevant crossed flags

When with the TA at Warminster all the WPtes and WLcpls wore their own unit rank and signals badges. Hope this helps. Neil
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  #36  
Old 08-05-19, 01:25 PM
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Thank you very much
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  #37  
Old 08-05-19, 01:53 PM
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Thanks a lot Neil,

That is the way we always wore them but I hadn't realised it was in one of the pamphlets, thanks a lot for digging it out.

Michael
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  #38  
Old 10-05-19, 05:17 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Hi Phil

Here we go Ive finally got it sorted, sorry its been a busy week and at the Running Rabbits museum on Thursday.

Right Ive now had yet another look at the unpublished manuscript by Maj Graham Donley RFD (Ret), held in the library at the Sigs Corps Museum.

On pages 60 to 64 the badge of 2 crossed flags is dealt with. On pages 71 to 75 the crossed flags with star above is dealt with.

It states in parts that

"Reference: Military Order (MO) 205 of 14th April 1914.
"It was then decided to grade signallers into 1st Class and 2nd Class :-
M. O. 307. Skill- at Arms badges for Signallers
1914. of the Signal Units, Light Horse and Infantry"

(1) Every Non-commissioned officer or man of the authorised establishment of Signallers of the above units, who passes the test for qualified Signaller as specified in Military Order 205 / 1914 will be classified 1st Class Signaller and will be entitled to wear on the left forearm the approved pattern badge "Crossed Flags with Star".

Sorry but these posts take some time to put up and I get timed out by the system and I end up loosing half of what Ive put up. So lets try again.

(2) Every non-commissioned officer or man of the authorised establishment of Signallers of the above units who passes the undermentioned test*will be classified 2nd class signaller, and will be entitled to wear on the left forearm the approved pattern badge "Crossed Flags."
Tests for 2nd class signallers will be carried out annually, prior to continuous training by Regimental Boards of two officers, to be nominated by Commanding Officers, or, in the case of Signals Units, by the Senior Signal Officer in the District.

Figure SIG 9 shows a pair of crossed flags with a 5 pointed star above (point up) which is stated to be 3 inches (7.7cm) high. Note the text below refers to a 6 pointed star.

"It is possible that this star has 6 points as in Heraldry a "Star" has 6 points or rays unless otherwise stated, even though the other stars used by the Army had 5 points and I have not located any statement that they were 5 pointed, only being said to be "stars".

Qualified regimental signallers who had also qualified as wireless operators wore the same badges, Figure SIG9 and Figure SIG10.

As a Skill at Arms Badge, it was worn on the left lower arm, however as Military Order Number 118 / 1915 of 2nd March 1915, effectively cancelled the provisions relating to First Class Signallers, it is likely few, if any, of these badges were actually worn by members of the Engineer Signals Units or the Australian Corps of Signalls.

REFERENCE: Military Order (MO) 307 of 9th June 1914, and Military Order (MO) 118 of 2nd March 1915.

The subject of Star and Crossed Flags next appears as follows "Standing Orders for Clothing, Paragraph 291, (b) (ii) of 1935 as follows."

"Star and Crossed Flags. For qualified regimental signallers who have also qualified as wireless operator (Regimental Signaller).
Although Australian Corp of Signals personnel were therefore not eligible for the badge, reference is included for interest."
"
REFERENCE: Standing Orders of Dress 1935."

This just about ends the discussion on Star and Crossed Flags badges in Australian usage, however I do have star badges which form part of 2 piece and 3 piece marksmanship badges, they have crossed .303 rifles with 5 point stars above, point up. the stars are about 37mm across and have 2 lugs and are mounted on backing plates.

I hope that this helps.

Regards Phil.

Last edited by Lancer 17; 20-05-19 at 06:13 AM.
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  #39  
Old 10-05-19, 07:02 AM
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That's really interesting, so in 1914 a signaller wore the flags on the left forearm and if they passed a class one test the star was added above.

It sounds like I need one of the stars then.

Thanks a lot,

Michael
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  #40  
Old 10-05-19, 07:57 AM
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Hey Phil,

The photo showing the 6-pointed star above crossed flags in the book you mention is actually a picture of a Royal Marines 1st Class signals proficiency badge 1936 onwards with the top trimmed from the original tombstone shape. Regrettably that fact was not established until well after Graham had completed the book draft. As you know the book was never published, Graham believed he had verbal commitment from Australian Army History Unit to publish it but there was a change of policy or people down the line and it was shelved.

The badge you refer to was notified in MO 307/1914 of 09 Jun 14. However the provision for 1st and 2nd Class Signaller in the Australian Military Forces was cancelled by MO 118/1915 of 02 Mar 15. All signallers had to meet the qualifications formerly laid down for 1st Class Signaller. This badge was never produced or issued for that reason, although there were also some questions on policy relating to skill-at-arms badges in general that rose at the same time and which were held over during the period of the war which may have impacted on any intended issue in any case.

They are not listed in Price List of Clothing, nor Contracts Accepted in the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette during this period.

The metal star (point up) over crossed flags was Wireless Operator (Regimental Signals) - for qualified regimental signallers of all Arms, other than Australian Corps of Signals, who had qualified in addition as wireless operators. Authorised by an amendment, Serial 7 of 29 September 1934, to Instructions for Training 1933, and and an amendment, Serial 30 of 29 September 1934, to Standing Orders for Dress 1931, notified in Australian Army Order 203/1934. This badge is listed in brass and white metal by Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries 1936, both finishes of which were obsolescent in PVCN 1940, which introduced copper oxidised badges.

It was also authorised post WW2 for signallers of the Australian Cadet Corps who had obtained the qualifications laid down for cadets but who had also passed as wireless operators. Authorised by Standing Orders for Cadet Units raised at Educational Establishments 1949, Appendix C, but this authority appeared before policy on post-war AMF skill-at-arms badges had been finalised with the result that subsequent clothing entitlements for the Australian Cadet Corps failed to provide for the issue, and therefore supply, of these badges.

By then they'd been declared obsolescent anyway and no stocks were held.

Keith
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  #41  
Old 10-05-19, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny View Post
That's really interesting, so in 1914 a signaller wore the flags on the left forearm and if they passed a class one test the star was added above.

It sounds like I need one of the stars then.

Thanks a lot,

Michael
Not repeat not in the British Army.
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  #42  
Old 10-05-19, 04:13 PM
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Thanks Grumpy, I thought that was the case after reading Keith's post but I'm pleased you've confirmed that.

Michael
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  #43  
Old 20-05-19, 06:07 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Hi all, my post of 10th May 2019 above has now been completed.

Regards Phil.
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  #44  
Old 20-05-19, 06:23 AM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Hi all, my post of 10th May 2019 above has now been completed.

Regards Phil.
Excellent work Phil , very interesting read are you able to show Figure Sig9 and Sig10

Cheers Rob
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  #45  
Old 20-05-19, 07:39 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Excellent work Phil , very interesting read are you able to show Figure Sig9 and Sig10

Cheers Rob
Hi Rob

No sorry I cant post photos but if you Pm me your email address I can email them to you.

regards Phil.
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