Middlesex Beret, OSD Badge & Backing Patch - Opinions Please. - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

leigh kitchen · #1 05-09-15, 10:31 AM

I picked this up despite misgivings about the badge & backing as I wanted to check it out in hand.

The backing patch has no backing fabric, it's of yellow felt with a thin layer of red felt compressed or inserted into the yellow, looks as if manufactured that way.
The patch is tacked to the beret with red stitching, only on the upper half.
As well as the current badge's fixing holes through the backing & the fabric of the beret there are a pair about 1/4" further apart & about 1/2" lower, only through the beret fabric.
There's a carefully shaped hole through backing patch & beret where a badge with slider has been fitted.
There are traces of verdigris on the leather consistent with the positioning of cotter pins through both sets of fixing holes.
The badge impression on the backing patch is consistent with the badge currently on the beret.
The beret is an OR's issue, which could have been acquired from stores by purchase & worn by an officer.
The badge isn't the to be expected OR's one (would that be the bi-metal collar badge rather than the cap badge? Looks like a cap badge proper may have been fitted at one time because there's a hole for a slider) or officer's name scrolless collar badge in silver finish.
The badge fitted is an OSD one, the cap badge design but with lug fittings instead of blades, so I take it that it is an older pattern collar badge rather than a cap badge?
The cotter pin is of grey metal, no traces of rust but has traces of verdigris.

The beret, a "Kangol" dated 1955 looks ok.

Opinions please - is the whole arrangement "genuine" to the 1950's/60's/70's or a more recent put together/

Is the badge a genuine OSD or a fake / repro?

The vendor states that he has had the beret for about 6 years & was under the impression it was "an OR's one.

No problems with returning it.

manchesters · #2 05-09-15, 10:46 AM

Leigh,

First impressions are that everything is genuine,
BUT
That the OSD badge has been added later by a collector to replace a missing badge.

Just my thoughts.

regards

gb64 · #3 05-09-15, 10:47 AM

Hello Leigh ,
What size is the backing when laid out flat ?

Gerard

leigh kitchen · #4 05-09-15, 10:50 AM

Thanks, I was wondering about an ex-serviceman putting on a badge for "old comrades" purposes, an ex-officer just putting on an old officer quality badge of some sort, or an old fellow just sticking on a form of insignia of his old regiment that's available.....

leigh kitchen · #5 05-09-15, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gb64

Hello Leigh ,
What size is the backing when laid out flat ?

Gerard

About 1 7/16", about 37 cm in new money.

leigh kitchen · #6 05-09-15, 11:09 AM

Now I think of it wasn't the colouring for the Middlesex Regiment maroon & yellow rather than this red & yellow?
I always associate red & yellow with the RAC, which this beret won't be, (apart from anything else, I forgot to mention that it's dark blue anyway), did the Cheshires use a red & yellow patch?

Tiger Pete · #7 05-09-15, 05:10 PM

I have a Middlesex badge and backing that I'm fairly happy with. The backing is maroon and yellow and is attached to a black backing if memory serves. I'll try to upload a photo.

KR,

Pete

leigh kitchen · #8 05-09-15, 05:13 PM

Thanks, that's what I've seen on another thread, I don't know what this thing is it's not maroon, more of a red, closer to scarlet I think than maroon.

Tiger Pete · #9 05-09-15, 05:16 PM

I know that there are debates about which way round the colours should be and this is a First World War brass/GM badge but hopefully it illustrates the colours. I'll remove it and post better pictures tomorrow. I hope this helps.

KR,

Pete

leigh kitchen · #10 05-09-15, 06:11 PM

Thanks, a larger patch than the one I'm showing which is of a suitable size to back the Middlesex collar badge but.
According to "Badges & Embellishments" the way the colours were worn varied, maroon to the left as viewed from the front - 1st Bn, yellow to the left - 2nd Bn.
The backing I'm showing is presumably for a unit other than the Middlesex Regiment with a Middlesex badge (of the wrong type for a beret) mistakenly mated up with it.

gb64 · #11 05-09-15, 07:42 PM

Hello Leigh,
You are correct the backing was worn reversed by the 2nd Battn also worn both ways by TA battn's.The one you show could be a shoulder flash being smaller,(There's a thread on this I'll try to have look )the cap badge backings i own are not as "fluffy" as the one you show they are a flatter smoother finish, the cap badge backing of maroon /yellow (blood & sand) is normally cut at 50mm (2'') square with a black cloth to the reverse but also they come with a paper backing but seem to be cut a nats smaller at 47mm square.The badge you show seems an officers collar ? I've not seen a pic of an officer wearing a beret and this collar only the smaller WM collar worn by officers so may be a bit of a mixture put together as said.

Gerard

leigh kitchen · #12 05-09-15, 09:06 PM

Thanks. I had an idea that two patches were worn, one on each sleeve, & that after the beret patch was taken into use, the lozenges on the sleeves were changed to triangles - so I had a neat little theory that the beret patches caused no extra "expense", being in effect one of the two sleeve patches, the remaining lozenge being converted to a triangle on each arm.
As a theory that sounds a bit to neat, but if I keep repeating it it's the sort of thing that could pass into lore.

Mike Jackson · #13 06-09-15, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Thanks. I had an idea that two patches were worn, one on each sleeve, & that after the beret patch was taken into use, the lozenges on the sleeves were changed to triangles - so I had a neat little theory that the beret patches caused no extra "expense", being in effect one of the two sleeve patches, the remaining lozenge being converted to a triangle on each arm.
As a theory that sounds a bit to neat, but if I keep repeating it it's the sort of thing that could pass into lore.

Remind me in a week's time (in Holland on exercise) and I'll post images of a number of mint battalion flashes in the triangular format which came from a 2 Middlesex veteran - they came in facing pairs, were very neatly made and came in two distinct sizes. Format - rectangular or triangular - varied from battalion to battalion. Mike

leigh kitchen · #14 06-09-15, 06:59 AM

Will do, thank you.
I suspect that what I have either isn't Middlesex or it's an ex-Middlesex man's he's put together for British Legion type purposes.
The patch would take a collar badge but looks awkward with a cap badge.
I feel it may not be Middlesex, given the shade of red & the dissimilarity of construction, but should have a different unit's slidered badge.
I haven't measured up but given the positioning of the holes below the patch wonder if it was originally sans patch & fitted with a Royal Lincs Regt three lugged badge, although I can't see traces of the Lincs black & red rectangle having been worn.

Tiger Pete · #15 06-09-15, 03:14 PM

As promised, please find two close-up views of my badge and backing (with dimensions in metric and imperial).

KR,

Pete