Rifle Brigade AA KK2019 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Charlie585 · #1 17-10-10, 04:31 PM

Hi gents,

I picked the following badge up recently.

It is a KK2019 Rifle Brigade anodised aluminiun maker marked H W TIMINGS LTD B'HAM.

Could anyone please give me any clues as to whether this badge was actually worn as I would presume that it would have been for a short period only due to the change to KK2020.

Is it a rare badge or was it made for the collectors market.

Apologies for the lack of clarity in the pics.

Regards

Ry

engr9266 · #2 17-10-10, 04:37 PM

RY, Have a look at this thread- Anodised Aluminium Cap Badges By H W Timings Limited

jerry the gaoler

Charlie585 · #3 17-10-10, 07:46 PM

Thanks Jerry,

Found the thread but don't see this badge mentioned.

There is though a picture of the makers mark on the very same badge in the makers marks project which is identical to mine.

From that I'll take it as a genuine badge but it would still be nice to know more on the date / rarity of the badge.

On another note, I hope to be updating my RE album this week, got few to add!

Regards
Ry

hagwalther · #4 17-10-10, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi gents,

I picked the following badge up recently.

It is a KK2019 Rifle Brigade anodised aluminiun maker marked H W TIMINGS LTD B'HAM.

Could anyone please give me any clues as to whether this badge was actually worn as I would presume that it would have been for a short period only due to the change to KK2020.

Is it a rare badge or was it made for the collectors market.

Apologies for the lack of clarity in the pics.

Regards

Ry

Hi Ry,

If it is a genuine issue one then it is quite scarce but with these images I cannot see what I need to see especially in relation to the actual shapes of the characters making up the makers mark.

A/A badges are very hard to photograph well - do you have access to a dedicated scanner?

I cannot comment on its actual issue or use of this unit badge though but this badge was authorised for issue in A/A with Tudor Crown.

Regards

Chris

Alan O · #5 18-10-10, 07:40 PM

This badge design was used from 1927 until 1956 when it was replaced by the Guelphic crown version which according to K&K was sealed in Oct. He also states that there was an anodised version (true a/a or chrome is another question). The existence of an a/a version would mean that the RB were one of the first infantry regts to convert to a/a badges but oddly not to a q/c.

Charlie585 · #6 18-10-10, 08:08 PM

Hi gents,

The timing of the badge is what got me thinking, although K&K state anodised I am intrigued as to whether it was actualy produced given the QC issue and it being just prior to the Guelphic crown badge.

This lead me to the question of the possibility of it being a collectors badge, however if that was the case, I would assume that they would be quite well known.

I'll have a try at getting a decent pic of the makers mark but would say it is the same as the one in the project page except that it faces the other way on the slider. Would there be a record of who posted that picture, maybe he has the answer?

Chris if this is of interest to you for your book I would happily send it to you on loan to enable you to evaluate and photograph it.

Regards
Ry

hagwalther · #7 18-10-10, 09:04 PM

Hi Guys,

Unless I'm missing the point here but this badge in post #1 of the thread has a Tudor Crown and not a St. Edwards.

Here is the List of Changes entry for the Guelphic Crown where it notes the previous Tudor version. A/A badges started their CB numbers at 3000 and while the Tudor change is from C 4717 (intent only) it gives a sealed pattern number of 10192.

As such, it has to be given that the Tudor Crowned version of this badge at least reached pattern sealing.

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 17311) has been sealed to govern future manufacture. It differs from the old (No. 10192 Cat. Nos. 3100 (C 4717)) in that it bears the Guelphic Crown over the Maltese Cross and St. Edward Crown in the centre of the badge, replacing Tudor Crowns in the old pattern. The scroll is inscribed "PRINCE CONSORT'S OWN" is omitted from the new pattern, as also are the Battle Honours from the wreath. The title of the regiment inscribed on the badge now reads "RIFLE BRIGADE".

If you can get decent images I can comment more - this is one badge that I am actively looking for.

Regards

Chris

hagwalther · #8 18-10-10, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi gents,

Chris if this is of interest to you for your book I would happily send it to you on loan to enable you to evaluate and photograph it.

Regards
Ry

Ry,

I'll get back to you - there may be issues re: insurance, VAT and re-importation back into the UK.

Thanks !!!

Regards

Chris

William · #9 19-10-10, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi gents,

I picked the following badge up recently.

It is a KK2019 Rifle Brigade anodised aluminiun maker marked H W TIMINGS LTD B'HAM.

Could anyone please give me any clues as to whether this badge was actually worn as I would presume that it would have been for a short period only due to the change to KK2020.

Is it a rare badge or was it made for the collectors market.

Apologies for the lack of clarity in the pics.

Regards

Ry

Hi Ry,

It's definitely not worth anything. Send it to me and I'll buy you a pint sometime.

;-) William

Alan O · #10 19-10-10, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Guys,

Unless I'm missing the point here but this badge in post #1 of the thread has a Tudor Crown and not a St. Edwards.

Here is the List of Changes entry for the Guelphic Crown where it notes the previous Tudor version. A/A badges started their CB numbers at 3000 and while the Tudor change is from C 4717 (intent only) it gives a sealed pattern number of 10192.

As such, it has to be given that the Tudor Crowned version of this badge at least reached pattern sealing.

NEW PATTERN. A pattern (No. 17311) has been sealed to govern future manufacture. It differs from the old (No. 10192 Cat. Nos. 3100 (C 4717)) in that it bears the Guelphic Crown over the Maltese Cross and St. Edward Crown in the centre of the badge, replacing Tudor Crowns in the old pattern. The scroll is inscribed "PRINCE CONSORT'S OWN" is omitted from the new pattern, as also are the Battle Honours from the wreath. The title of the regiment inscribed on the badge now reads "RIFLE BRIGADE".

Chris

Chris

Is there a date for the new Gulpheric crown badge's sealing? It could equally well be replacing a white metal k/c badge rather than an a/a one. The wording is suitably ambiguous to me and does not confirm that any k/c a/a badge got beyond the 'intent' stage.

Alan

hagwalther · #11 19-10-10, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

Chris

Is there a date for the new Gulpheric crown badge's sealing? It could equally well be replacing a white metal k/c badge rather than an a/a one. The wording is suitably ambiguous to me and does not confirm that any k/c a/a badge got beyond the 'intent' stage.

Alan

Hi Alan,

The date of sealing of the Gulpheric Crown is the 10th October 1956. Note that the LoC specifically states that it "differs from the old" being CB 3100 which is an anodised aluminium catalogue number.

The LoC (C 8294) further goes on to say that both the A/A and WM badges being CB 3100 and CB 0368 are to under go a 'Change of Designation'. This change is that of 'OBSOLECENT' being:

"Consequence on para 1. (i.e. the NEW PATTERN Gulpheric Crown) the above mentioned items (i.e. CB 3100 and CB 0368) are hereby amended in designation to read as now shown, and declared obsolecent."

Regards

Chris

Alan O · #12 19-10-10, 07:39 PM

Chris,

Thanks. That is clearer.

Alan

Charlie585 · #13 19-10-10, 10:52 PM

Thanks gents,

Chris,
Given then that this badge appears to have gotten past the intent stage can we assume that this one may have been made as a sample?

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on AA badges but as this pre-dates the Guelphic version KK2020, would you have any indication as to when the AA KK2019 would actually have been made? Or even a guess at the earliest possibility for the time being.

I have scanned the back of the badge, hopefully it is a little clearer.

William, thanks for the offer, nice try but I'll pass on that one for now.

Regards to all

Ry

hagwalther · #14 20-10-10, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Thanks gents,

Chris,
Given then that this badge appears to have gotten past the intent stage can we assume that this one may have been made as a sample?

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on AA badges but as this pre-dates the Guelphic version KK2020, would you have any indication as to when the AA KK2019 would actually have been made? Or even a guess at the earliest possibility for the time being.

I have scanned the back of the badge, hopefully it is a little clearer.

William, thanks for the offer, nice try but I'll pass on that one for now.

Regards to all

Ry

Hi Ry,

Sample badges (as I know things) were made unanodised and non colour dyed as the sample was made to check the dies used so that small changes could be made to the die before it was hardened. I have a St. Edward Crowned sample of the Highland Light Infantry. Samples were made as a batch of between 10-15 items.

As the badge passed to pattern sealing then one example from the batch one would go to the Master Sealed Pattern Card and around six or more to Standard Sealed Pattern cards. At this stage the badges for the cards would be both anodised and colour dyed. The rest would be 'lost' as there was no procedure to save them. These lost badges were probably not anodised or dyed as there was no reason to do this.

In my opinion, your badge is not a sample as it is not attached to a pattern card (although it could have been removed) and is at least colour dyed.

From what I can see (and do bear with me as images are not really the best) it looks like a good badge with the makers marks showing what I like to see by this maker. Other badges for this unit also exist by Timings and I would have no hesitation in stating that this unit badge was bulk manufactured for issue. Stating if it was actually issued and worn is another matter as such information is seldom found documented in A/A archives.

As such, I would have no hesitation purchasing this badge for my own collection if it, or one like it, came up for sale.

Dating the badge is a bit harder but I would say from between 1952 and 10th Oct 1956 when the Guelphic Crown version was pattern sealed.

Regards

Chris

Charlie585 · #15 20-10-10, 12:30 AM

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much indeed for all the usefull info on this badge and AA badges in general. I'm very pleased to have it in my collection.

The offer still stands if it is of any help to you and we are able to sort out the detail as far as customs etc.

Failing that, if there is another forum member that has the ability to take photos of the quality you require for the book who is willing to undertake the task maybe something can be arranged.

Kind regards

Ry