TF Bns. post 1908

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

Many threads on the Forum seem to ask the same old questions about Territorial Force Bns., and there relationship to regular bns. Perhaps it is well to remember that regular bns. occupied 1st and 2nd status with Militia bns. following - 3rd, sometimes 3rd and 4th. Territorial force bns. followed on - T4, T5, T6, T7, T8 and so on. WW1 produced further bns. - T9 and onwards. The collector should, I suggest, develop a clear understanding of the general format of Infantry regiments - regulars, militia, territorial and so on. Perrhaps newer Forum members might find this formula of use. David

What is this about T9 and onwards?

Battalions raised and number after the TF were SERVICE 'S' battalions and had nothing to do with TF but were in essence short service regular army.

It also muddies the water to refer to Militia and TF as if they were concurrent: the reforms which occurred in April 1908 had the effect of replacing the Militia with the Special and Extra Reserve, and the Volunteer Force with the Territorial Force.

For the record, as the period of interest seems to be 1900-1914, the following had 4 regular battalions for some or all of that period:

KRRC
Liverpool
LF
Manchester
Middlesex
NF
RF
RB
R War
Worcs.

[KLR]

Bill, Many regular infantry battalions were raised for the duration of the Boer war. The only one I know about in detail is the KLR.
In 1899 the KLR had its original (1685) 1st Bn, its 2nd Bn was raised in 1857. In 1881 two local militia units were numbered the 3rd and 4th.
In 1900 two new battalions were raised and numbered the 3rd and 4th - which meant that the (original) 3rd and 4th were renumbered 5th and 6th.
The two new ones were disbanded in 1901 and the 5th and 6th reverted to their original numbers ! In 1908 they were redesignated 3rd (Reserve) and 4th (Extra Reserve) Bns.
Vol Bns 1st to 8th were then renumbered 5th to 10, but not as simply as you might imagine !
1st Volunteer Battalion became 5th Bn TF
2nd Volunteer Battalion became 6th (Rifle) Bn TF
3rd Volunteer Battalion disbanded 1908
4th Volunteer Battalion became 7th Bn TF
5th (Irish) Volunteer Battalion became 8th (Irish) Bn TF
6th Volunteer Battalion became 9th Bn TF
7th (Isle of Man) Volunteer Battalion disbanded 1920
8th (Scottish) Volunteer Battalion became 10th (Scottish) Bn TF

The came the 1st WW and there were loads of new battalions !

[REMEVMBEA1]

Battalions raised and number after the TF were SERVICE 'S' battalions and had nothing to do with TF but were in essence short service regular army.

In fact many regiments had T battalions that were numbered above T9 and many had less for example
Royal Scots had 10 (cyclists) and 11 (HD).
The Queens , Buffs , KORR and Y & L "S" bns started at 6
The Kings "S" bns started at 11

It is very unwise when speaking of the British army to consider anything as being carved in stone which is what makes it such a fascinating subject.

[Wmr-RHB]

This web site, which I have no doubt that many of you know, has information about all the battalions in there respective regiments from 1914 through the Great War:
http://www.1914-1918.net/army.htm.

While it does not have the wanted battalion history before 1914, it might help.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

Battalions raised and number after the TF were SERVICE 'S' battalions and had nothing to do with TF but were in essence short service regular army.

In fact many regiments had T battalions that were numbered above T9 and many had less for example
Royal Scots had 10 (cyclists) and 11 (HD).
The Queens , Buffs , KORR and Y & L "S" bns started at 6
The Kings "S" bns started at 11

It is very unwise when speaking of the British army to consider anything as being carved in stone which is what makes it such a fascinating subject.

Yes, but the T9 was not of my doing.

I cannot find RS T 11, however. James's book has 11 as Service. Is he wrong?

[REMEVMBEA1]

I have , for the RS an 11 (HD) bn and and an (S) Bn which I extracted from a book on the history and lineage of regiments that I borrowed from the library years ago and copied out longhand before I had a computer.They also apparently had 2nd battalions one a regular and 2nd (Home Service) bn. As I say , it's a minefield.
According to my records the Royal Scots has 5 regular. 1 militia, 21 territorial and 11 new Army (Service) Bns

[Peter Brydon]

Whilst agreeing that generally battalions raised after the outbreak of WW1 were Service Battalions, Ray Westlake in his book "The Territorial Battalions- A Pictorial History 1859-1985" does mention a number of territorial battalions formed during WW1.

In the case of the Kings Liverpools these were the 10th ( Home Defence ) and 15th ( Home Defence ) battalions as well as the 25th and 26th Battalions ( to which I have medal groups including the Territorial Efficency medals named to these battalions ) and the 30th Battalion.

Similar battalions are mentioned for other regimients, now whether these battalions had their own unique insignia is another matter.

P.B.

[bewley]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Has this anything to do with badges ?

Bill
I think it probably has more to do with the authors aim of the fastest member to reach the 1,000 posts mark!
BB

[Peter Brydon]

Whilst not wishing to do anything to anything to change this thread into one of the rows for which this Forum is becoming famous,the study of lineage is an important aspect ( in my opinion ) of badge collecting.

Not only does it make it easier to put a date to an item but I seem to recall a Volunteer Battalion badge being identified as a spurious item because when someone checked it out the regiment in question never had a V.B. with that number.

It does seem to me the more you know about the history of the unit that wore a particular badge the more interesting the subject becomes.

The attached is something I put together from various sources to not only help date Liverpool Volunteer and Territorial badges but to understand how the various Rifle Volunteer units became Volunteer battalions and later Territorial Battalions.

P.B.

[BILL DUGGAN]

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

I use Brigadier James's book for such matters, although the RWF dispute his total for their regiment.
Including transient units, and garrison battalions and whatever, NF weigh in at about 50 units.
The authority is probably Graham Stewart.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

It does seem to me the more you know about the history of the unit that wore a particular badge the more interesting the subject becomes. P.B.

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Hello Gents,

It's what this forum does best! A great thread, after a shaky start.

Happy days

Ry

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

My late grandfather (Taed) was a member of the 47rd Provisional battalion having previously (I think) being a member of the Denbighshire Yeomanry but his gravestone in the Llangollen Welsh churchyard shows him as being in the RWF. I once enquired about his service record from the RWF museum and received a reply that there was no such thing as a 23rd Provisional Battalion which seems to show that even experts can be wrong.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

My late grandfather (Taed) was a member of the 47rd Provisional battalion having previously (I think) being a member of the Denbighshire Yeomanry but his gravestone in the Llangollen Welsh churchyard shows him as being in the RWF. I once enquired about his service record from the RWF museum and received a reply that there was no such thing as a 23rd Provisional Battalion which seems to show that even experts can be wrong.

The official RWF lineage by one of its foremost historians [not me I hasten to add] for the Great War lists:

Regular 1st & 2nd
Special Reserve 3rd
Service 8 to 11, 13 to 17, 19 and 26
Reserves 12, 18, 20 to 22
Home Service 24 & 26
Garrison 1 to 7
TF:
4, 2/4, 3/4, 4TF Res, 47 provisional, 23 RWF TF

5, 2/5, 3/5, 5TF Res, Denbs Yeo became 24RWF TF.

6, 2/6, 3/6, 6TF Res, Monts Yeo and Welsh Horse became 25RWF TF

7, 2/7, 3/7, 7TF Res

errors and omissions excepted

Please note that no regiment would ever deliberately sell itself short regarding huffing and puffing about number of units raised!

[Peter Brydon]

I have to say that the Kings Liverpools boast having had 57 battalions in
WW1 although not all existed at the same time.

The best source of information on Lineage is the 2 volume "Lineage Book of the British Army 1660-1978 " by ( Reverend ) J.B.M. Frederick. It is not the easiest book to follow and it sometimes takes some time to find the regiment you are looking for information on,but once you find the right page it is all there.

The entry for the 23rd Bn. RWF formed in 1915 as the 47th Provisional Bn (TF) from Frederick is attached.

P.B.