2003 edition: Military Cap Badge Collecting - Gaylor

[Luke H]

Guys,

Something mentioned on another thread made me have a look at the examples of badges photographed in the new editions of Gaylor where the photographs been re-done improving the image. This book published after the late John Gaylor's death I previously assumed to be badges from his collection however looking at a couple of badges a bb RIR, Leeds Pals and most blantant of all a Finsbury Rifles. All three mentioned appear to be restrikes - the bb RIR has unvoided tail scrolls, the Leeds Pals has the undefined dots and right rams horn visible above the neck and most tell tale of all the Finsbury Rifles has the die flaws on the upper cross arms.

Previous to my discovery today I believed all badges photographed were from John Gaylors personal collection assembled pre restrike. Seemingly in this edition the badges photographed (after his death) are not from his collection which I'm assuming must have been broken up prior to assembly of material for publication.

Any thoughts?

Luke

[Luke H]

Am I the only one who didn't know this??? as its really shocked me and now has me worried over a couple bits in my collection - I've bought badges on the premise of them being from the same die as the one show in that edition of the book.

Cheers,

(a concerned and obviously daft) Luke

[John Mulcahy]

Luke

I cannot comment on the book in question as I do not have a copy of that edition.

The books are not infallible, I think it was Julian who commented in another thread , that these are not reference books they are books of collections of badges. I rather think he is right.

The data and images in them are only as good as the primary references and the knowledge of the authors. In almost all cases (Churchill and Linaker & Dine are exceptions that come to mind immediately) there are few if any primary references and the images have to be taken as somewhat anectdotal. One can use the reputations of the author(s) and/or the date of the images (pre mass restrikes 1970's) to determine the probability that they are genuine.

John

[Malcolm Davey]

Having gone through the book at a glance i can see at least 6 suspect badges.
Time to get an older edition i think.

Malc

[Alan O]

I believe that a Forum member had a hand in updating the 2003 issue so perhaps he would like to comment on where he got the photos from.

The proof reading was a bit poor as well as there are lots of annoying typos and errors!

Alan

[ard-ri]

Does anyone have documented proof positive that RIR / RUR badge scroll ends are supposed to be voided?. I have seen the non-voided badges sell as originals at several reputable auction houses. Would the MOD have any documentation or even sealed badges with the correct scrolls or maybe even varients of these badges. Surely the MOD should have something in it's archives.

Michael

[davec2]

I don't know if I'm out of my depth here but my 1996 edition of John Gaylor, although contoversial in part, alledgedly, seems to me to be advisory rather than his own collection. It tells me about the badge, the Regiment and the time line ?? what I don't like is that the pictorial aspect of the badges shown, appears to be like drawings or over copied, copies, does that make sense ? or is it me ?
Dave C.

[Alan O]

Dave,

You are quite right. Some of the badges shown are photgraphed pictures of badges and in the 2003 edition drawings have been used for some of the modern badges. Also 2003 Edition it shows some badges but fails to include them in the text such as the modern Dorset Yeomanry. One would hope that any future edition could rectify this and might include the latest changes.

Alan

Quite interesting to read your comments on the 2003 John Gaylor book.
As for the badges that are mentioned in Lukes thread, all the London badges including the Finsbury's belonged to the late Hugh King (Kipling and King) the Leeds rifles badge actually came with a medal group of a serving Leeds pal so unless they were making repros in 1916. Finally on the badges the Royal Irish Rifle badge is the correct badge for the period.

I agree with Ard-Ri the end scroll are always voided.
Also to comment if you look at John Gaylor's book 1971 edition some of the pictures he did actually put re-strikes in for instance the V Force, LRDG, RSR were restrikes in his book just to mention a few. And Alan I agree as the main text of the book I had nothing to do with they would not let me change some of the text or that was originally done by John Gaylor.

As for the last page I do apologise that I did not put text in as they wouldn't let me, as for the Queens and Kings div being drawings at that time I didnt have originals to photograph.
Happy Reading.

Peter

[Malcolm Davey]

some of the suspect badges i was refering to in the book.

Queen's Bays,Life Guards1st & 2nd,Tyneside Irish, who own these.

Malc

[jeanpit-frenchy]

Originally Posted by joachim

some of the suspect badges i was refering to in the book.

Queen's Bays,Life Guards1st & 2nd,Tyneside Irish, who own these.

Malc

i have the 2003 edition of GAYLOR.....

for the 1st and 2nd life guards:
my badge is identical to the book (but i buy the cap badge in GB and for me only 50% chance that is genuine...)

the tyneside irish : my cap badge is voided betwen the crown and the harp ...the book not voided........(idem for connaught rangers....)


if somebody want i can make a scan of some page of my GAYLOR and send them

and my RIR end of scroll voided, the GAYLOR no voided

a mistake with the flag of the inniskilling WW1 (flag to the right)

i dont have the queen's bay

one of my french friend had a older edition of gaylor i'll see him wednesday i'll regard is GAYLOR

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by peter616

Quite interesting to read your comments on the 2003 John Gaylor book.
As for the badges that are mentioned in Lukes thread, all the London badges including the Finsbury's belonged to the late Hugh King (Kipling and King) the Leeds rifles badge actually came with a medal group of a serving Leeds pal so unless they were making repros in 1916. Finally on the badges the Royal Irish Rifle badge is the correct badge for the period.

I agree with Ard-Ri the end scroll are always voided.
Also to comment if you look at John Gaylor's book 1971 edition some of the pictures he did actually put re-strikes in for instance the V Force, LRDG, RSR were restrikes in his book just to mention a few. And Alan I agree as the main text of the book I had nothing to do with they would not let me change some of the text or that was originally done by John Gaylor.

As for the last page I do apologise that I did not put text in as they wouldn't let me, as for the Queens and Kings div being drawings at that time I didnt have originals to photograph.
Happy Reading.

Peter

Hi Peter,

That Finsbury with the die flaw on the upper cross arm also has a solid crown which not necessarily bad isn't a good sign considering the die flaw does appear to be present. Interestingly enough the 'dodgey' Finsbury is shown above the caption '6th Bn. City of London Rifles' (top left picture in PLATE-38, page 194) which it is obviously not, was this a mix up at the printers/how did a pic of that badge which is different to the Finsbury shown in the correct place (which is a right 'un btw) get in there?

As for the RIR I've had a closer look and you are correct the tails are voided and I think a bit of a shadow had me thinking otherwise.

Cheers,

Luke

all the badges

[John Mulcahy]

JeanPit

would you please post a photo of the back of your Tyneside Irish badge, where did this badge come from?

thanks

John

[jeanpit-frenchy]

Originally Posted by joachim

Shadows hmmmm

denfinately no voids either side of the Bays and the "V" in GVR , the right side is definately soild joined to the "R" when there should be voids both sides of the "V".
Definate restrikes IMO

Malc

ok confirmation, it is a restrike ( damned a another one !!!! )