RCAC Regimental flashes

[slick_mick]

Hi Guys,

I've finally gotten around to posting the pictures of my RCAC flashes - can anyone assist me with information as to when they wore worn?



Mick

[Voltigeur]

Mick, Canadian Armoured Corps,WW2 period. Then in mid-45 they became Royal and started to wear the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps one. All the rest were worn from post-war to 1968 or about when the Canadian Army changed it's battle-dress to the green CF uniform. Then they were made like the Queen's York Rangers model. BillA could probably give you more info on this subject.
Hoping that will help you.
Cheerio.
Jo

[slick_mick]

Hi Jo,

Thanks mate!

What about post 1968? Were cloth shoulder flashes worn after this date?

Do you have any pictures of modern RCAC flashes if they exist?

Mick

[Bill A]

Hello Mick,
To add to Jo's id info.
Top row, all titles are post war period until approx 1968. (With unification of the Canadian Forces in 1968, units were supposed to "lose" regimental indentity and become part of the "forces". But, units received the new uniforms over a period of time, and some put up battledress flashes on the CF uniform. Others created new embroidered titles for the new issue CF greens. In the militia unit to which I belonged, we did not get CF uniforms until after 1975. Later in the 1970's, "CF" titles all in gold or yellow embroidery on dark green were issued in a variety of styles for a variety of orders of dress. These were replaced when the garrison dress uniform was issued, and again a new title was issued when garrison dress was replaced.)
Second row, the first two flashes (from the left) are post WW2, the third title is CF deu issue 1980's / 1990's, and the final one in the row is post WW2.
The third row, 14 Hussars, may be late WW2 or post war, Canadian Armoured Corps, WW2, the QY Rangers is a fully embroidered pattern title, worn by cadet corps, and by some regiments as a title on the CF or garrison dress uniform, late 1980's into the 90's. Sherbrooke H title was a pre-unification fully embroidered title, circa 1968 period.
Fourth row, first three titles post war battledress, as the R de Hull also appears to be. The Lord Strathcona's Horse title may be a WW2 issue. It appears to have a white cotton backing? Image please.
Confusing area of collecting.

[Voltigeur]

Mick, I told you Bill would have more info on the subject and I was right.
Cheers
Jo

[boots and saddles]

Bill is it possible for you to list the WW2 titles for the Arm'd Regiments. Ray

[DavidS]

Overseas:

1st Canadian Army
Royal Montreal Regiment (MG)
Elgin Regiment (25th Armoured Delivery Regiment)

1st Cdn. Corps
Royal Canadian Dragoons
Lorne Scots

2nd Cd. Corps
Prince Edward Island Light Horse
12th Manitoba Dragoons

1st Infantry Division
Princess Louise Dragoon Guards (to 5th Armoured Div., 1944)
Saskatoon Light Infantry (MG)

2nd Infantry Division
8th Reconnaissaince Battalion (8th Recce)
Toronto Scottish (MG)

3rd Infantry Division
17th Duke of York's Royal Cdn. Hussars
Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (MG)

4th Cdn. Armoured Division
South Alberta Regiment
Governor General's Foot Guard
Canadian Grenadier Guards
British Columbia Regiment
New Brunswick Rangers (MG)

5th Cdn. Armoured Division
Governor General's Horse Guards
Lord Strathcona's Horse
8th Princess Louise's N.B. Hussars
British Columbia Dragoons
Princess Louise Fusiliers (MG)

1st Cdn. Armoured Brigade
Ontario Regiment
Three Rivers Regiment
Calgary Regiment (King's Own Calgary Regiment)

2nd Cdn. Armoured Brigade
First Hussars
Fort Garry Horse
Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment
7th/11th Hussars (disbanded 01/1943)

Under British command
1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment

Other
Essex Regiment ("No. 1 Canadian Equipment Assembly Unit")
Royal Canadian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers (Recovery)


Home Defense:

6th Infantry Division
15th Alberta Light Horse (31st Reconnaissance Battalion)
St. John Fusiliers (MG)

Various
Argyll Light Infantry (Tank)
New Brunswick Regiment (Tank)
19th Alberta Dragoons
Princess of Wales's Own Regiment (MG)
2nd Armoured Car Regiment
2nd/10th Dragoons

[slick_mick]

Thanks guys!

That kind of clarifies things for me. I'm trying to put together a RCAC set and it seems that the flashes I have in the picture are from different periods to my badges :-(

Also does anyone know of any good source of info on the RCAC and their insignia from WW2 to present day? Does one exist?

Mick

[Voltigeur]

David, I just read your post and the Royal Montreal was 1st Can. Army HQ. Defence Bn., the Lorne Scots was 1st. Can.Corps Defence Coy., the P E I Light Horse was 2nd Corp Defence Coy., the Sask. L.I. was MG Bn. for the 1st Div., the Toronto Scottish was MG Bn. for 2nd Div., the Cameron H. of Ottawa was MG Bn. for 3rd Div., the New Brunswick Rangers was MG Coy. for 4th Arm'd Div., the Princess Louise Fus. was MG Coy. for 5th Arm'd Div., the Princess of Wales Own Regt. served as infantry in Canada. Also, the Lorne Scots supplied troops as Defence and Employment Platoons for 2nd,3rd and 4th Canadian Divs. and their brigades. These units were not armoured but served as infantry.
Hoping that will help you.
Jo

[fearnaught]

Hi, were the P.E.I. Light Horse ever in the Armoured Corps?

[Voltigeur]

Hello fearnaught. During the period 1920-1939 the P.E.I. LI were a cavalry unit until Sept.'39 when they were transformed into a infantry unit. But, in Canada, from 1939 to 1945 at the time the P.E.I. Light Horse was the 17th (Reserve) Armoured Regt. As the title implies it was "armoured". I don't know much about this unit, during that period, perhaps someone could give you more info on this (BillA???).
By the way Canadian units that stayed in Canada during the war did not wear coloured shoulder titles on the BD. Instead they wore those khaki slip-on shoulder titles with black lettering.
Hoping this will help.
Jo

[DavidS]

My understanding, and I stand to be both informed and corrected, is that defense HQ defense regiments were armoured (if only with a squadron of 4 tanks). The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps: An Illustrated History (Materteison & McNorgan) lists both the Royal Montreal Regiment (32nd Reconnaisance Reg.) and PEI Light Horse (17th [Reserve] Armoured Regiment) in their Corps OB. It also describes the PEI Light Horse as "1st Canadian Armoured Brigade Headquarters Squadron" as of Feb. 1941.

As for the RMR, in Jan. 1943 it was "converted from a machine-gun battalion and brought into the Canadian Armoured Corps as the 32nd Recconaissance Regiment."

In 1942, the Princess Louise Fusiliers are called a "Motor Battalion", and under later divisional reorganizations various other regiments are named "Motor" -- whatever that actually means.

As well as the above, the RCAC history adds Les Voltiguers de Quebec (24th Reconnaissance Reg.), 16/22 Saskatchewan Horse (20th Army Tank Brigade), Halifax Rifles (23rd Army Tank Brigade), and Grey & Simcoe Foresters (26th Army Tank Reg.) to the Corps OB -- the latter 3 designated 2nd Army Tank Brigade as of May 1942. All 4 regiments shipped to Britain in 1943 but were disbanded in November 1943.

This presents the problem I had when trying to arrange a badge collection: restructuring, reorganization, reassignment, disbanding and reallocation. (Try figuring out a home defense division for an exercise in frustration!). If you ask "which were armoured regiments in WW2?" you need to either add "on X day of X year" or include any which were officially designated as armoured or tank regiments at any time from 1939-1945.

So scratch 7 infantry (Lorne Scots, Toronto Scottish, Camerons, N.B. Rangers, Princess Louise Fusiliers, Sask. L.I., and Princess of Wales's Own), but keep 2 (PEI Light Horse and RMR) and add 4 if you go by the Corps history.

[Voltigeur]

David, I agree on many points. But, I based my answers on a "order of battle" of the 1944-45 time frame in NW Europe and Italy. The RMR was again disbanded in mid-late '43, to be reformed in '44 into the Defence Bn. due to political pressures from some MP's from Montreal (losing the MG designation on their shoulder title).
The term 'Motor" applied if I'm not mistaken to an infantry unit that was part of the armoured brigade of an armoured div. This infantry bn. was to accompany the tanks in an attack to take out the anti-tank defences of the ennemy. The Lake Superior Regt. (Motor) kept that designation.
It would seems that the "hi-powered help" as they were sometimes known, liked to play around with the units like a child plays with toy soldiers. Case in point, the mess with the 2nd vs 3rd Armoured Brigades.
My suggestion would be to take the orbat of the Canadian Army of May 1945 and start from there and building the 4th and 5th Divs. plus the 1st and 2nd Armoured Brigade. and adding the Elgin Regt. as the 25th Tank Delivery Regt.. And the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regt. the "Kangaroos", but they served with the 79th Br. Arm'd Div.
I hope I did not lose you in my answer. Feel free to contact me if you need more info.
Cheers
Jo

[Voltigeur]

David, three pictures that might interest you from LAC. on the RMR.
Jo
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

[Bill A]

Good discussion in this thread. I hope to have quite a bit more on the CAC / RCAC wartime orbat shortly.
Some points to consider regarding the types of units, war establishments and orders of battle. First, during the Second World War, Canada closely followed the British army in the organization, roles and strengths of regiments and battalions. There were some national differences, but by and large the same kind of units and taskings existed in the British army and dominion armies, especially in the same theatres of operations. With this basis in mind, the organization of the Canadian army was not quite at the whim of the "high priced help". The British were desperately trying to come up with a divisional "forumula" that would be an effective force against the German "blitzkrieg" style of operations, and indeed, give the British army an advantage over the Germans. As such several war establishments and structures were tried for infantry and armoured and airborne divisions. This led to some new specialized units, such as army tank battalions and infantry "motor" regiments.
The infantry motor regiments were only found in armoured divisions.
They were equiped with half tracks and armoured trucks or carriers, in order to allow them to keep up with the face paced armoured regiments in the brigade or division. Thus in the Canadian army we have the Lake Superior Regiment (Motor) and the Westminster Regiment (Motor).