RTR, WWII Egypt badge? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

iaindh · #1 06-04-11, 04:02 AM

This badge was posted on a South African Militaria website and claims to be an "Egypt" badge; see also description:
RTR Egypt badge.JPG

Description
This Badge came back to South Africa as a momento of the Desert War. It was the design of this badge which motivated Brink's Design for the one to the South African Tank Corps; we were actually in armoured cars.
"Quartermaster's Comment":- Quite well made for Cairo. There is a good touch of brass in the mix and the badge has copper lugs. The 4th/6th S.A. Armoured Car Regiment was Brigaded with the British 8th Tank Regiment at El Alamein.

I dont know too much about "Egypt" badges, presumably made locally, but why?
Also, RTR gurus, is it actually genuine?

Thanks,

Iain

matti467 · #2 06-04-11, 06:38 AM

Hello,
My grandfather served in the RTC from 1923 until 1939 and then the RTR after that. He was in Egypt and India during much of his service. He was in the Western Desert in 1941. It is quite possible that your item is made in Egypt. Replacing cap badges would be cheaper in the local market and might involve less questions than from the QM.
Matti

Old Smelly · #3 06-04-11, 07:08 AM

I have seen local made cap and collars to RTR so it was done, better pics of front and back would help to decide if this was a real one
Lee

iaindh · #4 06-04-11, 10:31 AM

Thanks for your replies.
I'll try to organise a back pic.
So is an "Egypt" badge considered a fake or is it still acceptable?

Iain

Old Smelly · #5 06-04-11, 03:09 PM

I have a few of these sand cast local made badges, definately period and worn, although some still class them as fakes or copies as they were not made under an official government contract
Lee

matti467 · #6 06-04-11, 04:06 PM

I'd advise popping it in the collection as an addendum.
Matti

iaindh · #7 09-04-11, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Smelly

I have a few of these sand cast local made badges, definately period and worn, although some still class them as fakes or copies as they were not made under an official government contract
Lee

Lee, you refer to sand cast badges; I always "assumed" cast badges to be fakes but I also see references on the forum to cast badges? I thought all genuine badges were die stamped but then I am still a novice. Are cast badges acceptable generally.

Iain

lancashirefusilier · #8 09-04-11, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaindh

Lee, you refer to sand cast badges; I always "assumed" cast badges to be fakes but I also see references on the forum to cast badges? I thought all genuine badges were die stamped but then I am still a novice. Are cast badges acceptable generally.

Iain

Hello Iain

Old Smelly hits it on the head.

The official cast badges,in my opinion, are arguably some of the most gorgeous pieces around.The trouble comes when you have indigenous pieces made by natives in sand in the souk or bazaar.Here a decision is made on the type of metal,its characteristics and more importantly its feel.
Reading ,handling and research is paramount here but we can always still get stung!

The continent of Africa particularly the North and East throw some amazing bits 'n' bobs up.

ATB

Dave

iaindh · #9 09-04-11, 02:48 PM

Thanks Guys for all the input; I'm learning all the time. What's the expression, "curiouser & curiouser!"
Unfortunately the badge books, even K&K, don't show the back of the badges and dont mention whether they are cast or die stamped; can anyone recommend a good web site on this subject?

regards,

Iain

fearnaught · #10 09-04-11, 03:52 PM

Hi, as near as I can tell from your pic is that it is a casting that I asume was made in the middle east or India,semi official as this is the only brass cast silver plated type that has appeared in old collections. I'm sure others will have different views, but that's the joy of badge forums.A lot of bazaar badges were made, but they were made from coinage silver as a special. I've got a couple of examples of these. The usual distinguishing features are, they are silver, the front is very good and the back retains some features but are filed flat to smooth off the back. With tank badges they are finished with copper lugs. The lugs for the semi official one are quite distinctive. As to where you can find a forum for badge information I thought that was what you were on. I've haven't found one better. Hope all the above helps. Also I wasn't sure if you were saying it had been worn by SA armour. The SA's seem to have always worn their own badges. If you have any information on their early developement that would be interesting as they certainly had quite a few varieties of sand cast badges. Mike

Alex Rice · #11 09-04-11, 05:27 PM

Hi All
I have a couple of these 'brass cast' RTR badges in my collecction, one which has a white plating, the other plain brass. I am happy that they are genuine WWII vintage thanks to the source. I have also met a couple of veterans over the years who wore these 'Egyptian cast' badges as replacements because many units couldn't get badges for new recruits.
Unfortunately, due to the quality they are obviously something which are easy to fake, so I suppose it ends up at personal choice...
Cheers,
Alex

fearnaught · #12 09-04-11, 06:01 PM

Hi, you might be right about there being two finishes. I have one on a private purchase beret and that is definitely plated the other two may not have been plated. Do you have proof they are WW11 vintage or where they came from i.e. middle east or India? Mike

iaindh · #13 09-04-11, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, as near as I can tell from your pic is that it is a casting that I asume was made in the middle east or India,semi official as this is the only brass cast silver plated type that has appeared in old collections. I'm sure others will have different views, but that's the joy of badge forums.A lot of bazaar badges were made, but they were made from coinage silver as a special. I've got a couple of examples of these. The usual distinguishing features are, they are silver, the front is very good and the back retains some features but are filed flat to smooth off the back. With tank badges they are finished with copper lugs. The lugs for the semi official one are quite distinctive. As to where you can find a forum for badge information I thought that was what you were on. I've haven't found one better. Hope all the above helps. Also I wasn't sure if you were saying it had been worn by SA armour. The SA's seem to have always worn their own badges. If you have any information on their early developement that would be interesting as they certainly had quite a few varieties of sand cast badges. Mike

Hi Mike,
no, this particular badge was brought back to SA from North Africa as a trophy.
As a separate issue, the design of the British RTR badge was used as a basis for the design of the original South African Tank badge.
SOUTH_AFRICAN_TANK_CORPS_(WW2).jpg
Seemingly the original SA Tank Corps was short lived and was amalgamated into the SA Armoured Corps. The below link has some very interesting history of the various units of the SAAC.
http://www.saarmourassociation.co.za...20Insignia.pdf

Thanks for the other info.

rgds

Iain