British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17-01-22, 07:38 PM
KOMalta's Avatar
KOMalta KOMalta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Malta
Posts: 329
Default Victorian Crowns pre/post-1881

Would anyone be so kind as to explain the difference between a pre-1881 and a post-1881 Victorian Crown (images would be greatly appreciate), as I'm after a pre-1881 gilded Victorian Crown as worn on caps.

Thank you.
Vincent
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17-01-22, 07:40 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

No difference at all.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17-01-22, 08:00 PM
KOMalta's Avatar
KOMalta KOMalta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Malta
Posts: 329
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
No difference at all.

regards
Simon I've seen some on dealers sites stating as such. That's why i'm asking!

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17-01-22, 08:05 PM
Mike_2817's Avatar
Mike_2817 Mike_2817 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 2,596
Default

The 'Victorian Crown' is in fact the Saint Edwards Crown same as that used by Queen Elizabeth the Second at her coronation. It is simply a representation of the same crown!

The Queen wears the 'Imperial State Crown' at the opening of Parliament, and this crown is also known as the 'Kings Crown'

It is not known which crown Prince Charles will use on military badges when the Queen dies...
__________________
Sua Tela Tonanti

Wanted Poppy Pins
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17-01-22, 08:24 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

Perhaps some confusion with the flat topped "Jubilee" Crown, although I don't know why 1881 would figure?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17-01-22, 09:58 PM
54Bty's Avatar
54Bty 54Bty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 6,292
Default

May or may not help.
Marc

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=36751
__________________
I am still looking for British Army cloth Formation, Regimental, Battalion, Company and other Unit sleeve badges, from 1980 onwards.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18-01-22, 04:38 AM
Milmed's Avatar
Milmed Milmed is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,702
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOMalta View Post
Simon I've seen some on dealers sites stating as such. That's why i'm asking!

Thanks
Find another dealer... the one making the statement clearly does not know his stuff, so I would be weary of spending hard earned money with them...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18-01-22, 06:17 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,736
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Perhaps some confusion with the flat topped "Jubilee" Crown, although I don't know why 1881 would figure?
I have a niggling thought that her son took over as CiC of the military and some regiments changed their crowns...?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18-01-22, 09:54 AM
Royal Royal is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_2817 View Post
It is not known which crown Prince Charles will use on military badges when the Queen dies...
I'm sure I've read somewhere that its already been decided by MoD that there will be no change - in order to limit costs.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27-01-22, 04:07 AM
catbadge catbadge is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal View Post
I'm sure I've read somewhere that its already been decided by MoD that there will be no change - in order to limit costs.
For one thing, there is no such thing as a King's Crown and a Queen's Crown. The Tudor Crown (mistaken for the King's Crown) was introduced in the 1880's during the reign of Queen Victoria. Some regiments switched over to the Tudor Crown at this point, but some stayed with the St. Edwards Crown. It was during the reign of Edward VII that the Tudor Crown became standard, and was standard until 1953, a year after Queen Elizabeth became Queen. If you look at the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Medal, you will notice that she is wearing the Tudor Crown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_...ronation_Medal

A further point to debunk the myth of the Queen's and King's Crown: the first and last monarch to wear the "King's Crown" was a Queen.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27-01-22, 06:42 AM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

"King's Crown" and "Queen's Crown" are however convenient shorthand terms amongst collectors. to identify a style of crown albeit not foolproof, eg "Queen's Crown" may be taken by some to signify one worn by Queen Victoria.
King's Crown, Jubilee Crown, Victorian Crown, Queen's Crown, Guelphic Crown, Durbar Crown etc - has anyone any suggestions for more accurate two or three word descriptions for the various types that badge collectors should use?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27-01-22, 10:52 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Where on earth did you get the notion that...



"The Tudor Crown (mistaken for the King's Crown) was introduced in the 1880's during the reign of Queen Victoria."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 27-01-22, 11:25 AM
mike_vee's Avatar
mike_vee mike_vee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 4,892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
"King's Crown" and "Queen's Crown" are however convenient shorthand terms amongst collectors. to identify a style of crown albeit not foolproof, eg "Queen's Crown" may be taken by some to signify one worn by Queen Victoria.
King's Crown, Jubilee Crown, Victorian Crown, Queen's Crown, Guelphic Crown, Durbar Crown etc - has anyone any suggestions for more accurate two or three word descriptions for the various types that badge collectors should use?
As a 'novice' I used the Wiki descriptions :

St Edward's Crown is the centrepiece of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom. Named after Saint Edward the Confessor, it has been traditionally used to crown English and British monarchs at their coronations since the 13th century.

The Imperial State Crown has existed in various forms since the 15th century. The current version was made in 1937 and is worn by the monarch after a coronation (St Edward's Crown having been used to crown the monarch) and used at the State Openings of Parliament.

The Tudor Crown, also known as the King's Crown or Imperial Crown, is a widely used symbol in heraldry of the United Kingdom. Officially it was used from 1902 to 1953 representing not only the British monarch personally, but also "the Crown", meaning the sovereign source of governmental authority.

As long as I knew which was which the 'details' didn't bother me .


.
__________________
British Legion/Royal British Legion , Poppy/Remembrance/Commemorative.

Poppy and British Legion Wanted
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 27-01-22, 12:00 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by catbadge View Post
For one thing, there is no such thing as a King's Crown and a Queen's Crown. The Tudor Crown (mistaken for the King's Crown) was introduced in the 1880's during the reign of Queen Victoria. Some regiments switched over to the Tudor Crown at this point, but some stayed with the St. Edwards Crown. It was during the reign of Edward VII that the Tudor Crown became standard, and was standard until 1953, a year after Queen Elizabeth became Queen. If you look at the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Medal, you will notice that she is wearing the Tudor Crown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_...ronation_Medal

A further point to debunk the myth of the Queen's and King's Crown: the first and last monarch to wear the "King's Crown" was a Queen.
The Tudor crown was introduced by King Henry VIII a member of the House of Tudor hence the name and used on the Royal coat of arms, coinage, cannons etc.

The flat topped crown I believe you are referring to found on cap badges worn in the QVC era was Queen Victoria’s Imperial State Crown made in 1838.

The ‘myth’ (?) you refer to are rather a shorthand colloquial terminology for the St. Edward’s crown (QC) and Tudor crown (KC).

Indeed the QVC as it is commonly referred to is just a more stylised shape to the St. Edward’s crown used by the current monarch.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 27-01-22, 12:06 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post

As long as I knew which was which the 'details' didn't bother me .


.
100000%.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:45 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.