What is wrong here? #2

[Bill A]

Another printed Canadian formation patch with some similar and some different problems. What is wrong here?

[boots and saddles]

I don't have a 20th listed Bill, I don't have a 24th either. Am I missing something? Ray

PS. I have the Royal Montreal Regiment listed as the 32nd Recce Regt. I didn't know they were ever mechanized. ( Infantry Recce?) they were Recce in 1943.

[Voltigeur]

Hi Bill, well the only canadian armoured unit with the number 20 was the 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse and they did go overseas in WW2. They were a Tank Battalion and not a Canadian Tank Regt. and were never part of the Third Armoured Brigade so, no brigade patch issued. So my dear Bill, this must be a fake.
How am I doing so far.
Jo

P.S.:Mob. 24/05/1940 and to UK 06/43, disb.1/10/43

[boots and saddles]

Jo what happened to the 16th/22nd did they amalgamate with anyone else or were they disbanded? and which Regt was the 24th? would it be the Queens York Rangers? There was no 13th ?. Ray

[Voltigeur]

Hello Ray, the 16th/22nd was,disbanded plain and simple in the UK and the officers and troopers sent to other units to fill up the ranks. The Queen's York Rangers served in Ontario, in garrison duties and were disbanded in Oct.'43. As for the 24th,it was the Voltigeurs de Quebec who were first infantry then, recce, sent to the UK in 07/43, reverted to infantry to be finally disbanded and the officers and other ranks sent to reinforce the four french-speaking units in the UK at the time. There was no 13th recce or armoured regt.
That's it Ray.
Cheers,
Jo

[Pylon1357]

Ray, I stole this from another site I have book marked.....

16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse

3 Jul 1905 - 1 Apr 1946
The 16th Canadian Light Horse (raised 3 Jul 1905) was amalgamated with the 22nd Mounted Rifles (raised 1908) in 1936 to form the 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse. In 1941, the unit was amalgamated with the Battleford portion of the Prince Albert and Battleford Volunteers to form the Battleford Light Infantry (16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse). In 1946, the pre-war units were reconstituted and the 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse was disbanded. The Prince Albert and Battleford Volunteers are now part of the North Saskatchewan Regiment.

[Joe C]

In my opinion the badge is a repro, from an Ottawa dealer if I'm not mistaken. The colour bleed/over print between the letters and the bar, the colour of the bar itself and the curved leg of the 'R' are all indications to me that it's a repro. I don't know anything about the unit itself but I wouldn't want this badge regardless.

[boots and saddles]

Thanks Cliff (I think)
Too bad about these Regiments,I can live with amalgamation but complete disbanding I can't. I can't see any reasoning to disbanding two Regiments like the Cape breton Hldr's & the North Nova Scotia Hldr's & creating a two Bn brand new Regiment. But the powers to be do. And thank you Jo , and questions for you. What was the no. of the Queens York Rangers when they were in the 3rd Arm'd Bdge? & Did the Voltigeurs ever wear a KC crossed MG button? I know they have a QC button. Ray

[Voltigeur]

Ray, the QYR were never in the 3rd Arm'd Bdge. In WW2 they were infantry and doing training and local protective duties in Ontario (but don't know where). In 1947 they became the 25th Arm'd Regt. and equipped with Sherman tanks until 1965. Then they changed designation to 25th Arm'd Recce Regt. up to today.
As for the Voltigeurs buttons, I don't think so, as far as I know always had the L I bugle on their buttons.
Jo

[Voltigeur]

Ray, just remembered that I had this in my bookmarks file. Not complete but gives a good idea of what was worn.The Voltigeurs' button is near the bottom.
Cheers
Jo
http://casfcaps.freehosting.net/buttons.htm

[boots and saddles]

My apologies Jo, I meant thr Regiment de la Chaudiere that have the crossed MG button,, And I have a bunch of pages put together by Charles Edwards who has written many works on Canadian Militaria that the original composition of the 3rd Arm'd Bdge was the Queens York Rangers, the Grey & Simcoe Foresters, and the South Alberta Regt. and he has both the Rangers & Foresters listed as the 26th Arm'd Regt. Maybe they made it up together. according to his footnote. While the South Alberta was the 29th. Ray

[DavidS]

it's all in the typeface.

[Voltigeur]

Ray,according to the informations that I have the "original" 2nd Army Tank Brigade was made up of the 20th Army Tank Regt.(16th/22nd Sask. H.),the 23rd Army Tank Regt. (Halifax Rifles) and the 26th Army Tank Regt.(Grey and Simcoe Foresters). An ad hoc 3rd Army Tank Brigade was made up of the First Hussars, the Fort Garry Horse and the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regt. The military hierarchy decided to disband the 2nd Brigade (just arrived from Canada) and keep the 3rd.
As for the Regt. de la Chaudiere button, I remember that I had a few a long time ago and they had the machine guns on it.

Jo

[Bill A]

Great responses to this thread. Joe C and DavidS combined have identified most of the problems with the brigade patch. To sum up, here are the problems with the patch:

1. No known printed patches were ever produced for this unit, or any of the sister regiments in that brigade
2. The colours of the patch are "off", note the "blue" is a blue gray, and the black is really a charcoal colour when compared with WW2 examples
3. The "bleeding" of the yellow into the Bde bar colour
4. The font used on the patch, in particular the nearly closed "C" and the "R" that has the leg rounded rather than the straight leg, and the "2" that is rounded at the top beginning of the number
5. This can't be determined from the image, but the fabric, while appearing to be okay is a completely different weave than WW2 examples
6. The patch when viewed edge on has a distinct white line from the material used in the weave. This is never found on the originals.

.
It is a bogus patch, probably made up in the 1990's by a source in Ottawa, as was suggested.

The discussion on the 2nd / 3rd Canadian Tank / Armoured Brigades was interesting. This is one of the most confusing orbats in the Canadian army during WW2. To clarify some of the confusion:

• The 2nd Canadian Army Tank Brigade was authorized GO 132 26 Jan 42. The orbat at that time was the 23rd Tank Battalion (Halifax Rifles), 24th Army Tank Battalion (Les Voltiguers de Quebec), and the 26th Army Tank Battalion (Grey & Simcoe Foresters).
• Les Voltiguers de Quebec were re-designated a Recce Bn, GO 248 22 May 1942, and left the brigade.
• The 20 Army Tank Regiment (16/22 Saskatchewan Horse) joined the 2nd Canadian Army Tank Brigade in June of 1942.
• Note: Army Tank Battalions were redesignated Regiments effective GO 302 15 May 1942.
• The 2nd CAB and 3rd CAB switched designations effective GO 88 22 July 1943. The "new" 2 CAB included: The 6th (1st Hussars) and 10th (Fort Garry's) from the 5th CAD, and the 27th (Sherbrooke Fusiliers) from the 4th CAD.
• The "new" 2 CAB essentially kept the supporting corps and HQ elements of the "old" 2nd CAB.

[Voltigeur]

Hi Bill, I was looking for the history behind this patch but I was missing the obvious in not looking in the right direction namely the fine details that you pointed in the first part of this post. I was looking at one tree and was missing the forest or the other way around. Sir I salute your knowledge in this matter.
Regards
Jo