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  #16  
Old 05-08-18, 08:56 PM
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magpie magpie is offline
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I remember reading somewhere and about 20-5 years ago that they only changed from the crown that we know as the QVC style crown to make a break in its use as it had been used for so long and Mark the new monarchy, there may be a much more simple explanation of the use of a new crown such as they very obviously don't fit the new wearers head, the real queen victorias crown made for her looks like the Kings crown, jumping the gun you could say is the 1950's biscuits tin and one of my metal Detecting finds an 1824 wax seal for the Royal National Life Boat Institution, but suppose we'll just have to wait and see What happens next.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-18, 09:17 PM
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Your wax seal does not date from 1824. That is the date the original organisation was founded as the National Institution for the Preservation of Life from Shipwreck.

It wasnt given the title RNLI until 1854 so it dates after that.

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  #18  
Old 05-08-18, 09:19 PM
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Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
I remember reading somewhere and about 20-5 years ago that they only changed from the crown that we know as the QVC style crown to make a break in its use as it had been used for so long and Mark the new monarchy, there may be a much more simple explanation of the use of a new crown such as they very obviously don't fit the new wearers head, the real queen victorias crown made for her looks like the Kings crown, jumping the gun you could say is the 1950's biscuits tin and one of my metal Detecting finds an 1824 wax seal for the Royal National Life Boat Institution, but suppose we'll just have to wait and see What happens next.
Blimey! Those white gloves must get filthy when you’re metal detecting, Andy!!
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  #19  
Old 05-08-18, 10:29 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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St. Edward’s Crown is the crown supposed to be heraldically represented over the Royal Arms and on other insignia as a State or official symbol. This is the crown we see on most uniform buttons until the accession of Edward VII to the throne in 1901. There are lots of variations because there was no standard and the designers of insignia and buttons made their own interpretations.

Dome-shaped Tudor pattern crown.
Edward VII had noticed that there were different crowns on accoutrements, which even included some Continental crowns, and he wished to regulate the shape of the crown. He wanted one uniform crown to become the sealed pattern for the Services (the sealed patterns are kept by the War Office as standards to be adhered to).
The crown is dome-shaped vs. square or arched, and was/is sometimes referred to as the Tudor Crown because the design was somewhat modeled on a crown worn by Henry VII, the first Tudor king. But in shape it is very similar to Queen Victoria’s Small Diamond Crown. The subsequent kings retained this crown pattern to use with their individual cyphers – George V, Edward VIII and George VI.
This brings us to 1952 and the accession of Queen Elizabeth II. She decided that the St. Edward’s Crown should be represented above her cypher rather than a representation of a crown that did not actually exist, so she directed that a heraldic representation of the St. Edward’s Crown should take the place of the so-called Tudor Crown in all future designs.
Therefore, the terms King’s Crown, Queen’s Crown and Queen Victoria’s Crown, abbreviated KC, QC, and QVC, are incorrect or at best over-simplifications, prevalent among military badge collectors, that have spilled over in the button world. The terms are used in catalogues, lists, and on the internet. It is just a coincidence that in the last century four male monarchs who chose the so-called Tudor Crown as the state symbol, were followed by a Queen who chose a representation of the St. Edward’s Crown. The basic design of the St. Edward’s Crown has been used by eight kings and two queens up to Queen Elizabeth.

Rgds, Thomas
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  #20  
Old 06-08-18, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
St. Edward’s Crown is the crown supposed to be heraldically represented over the Royal Arms and on other insignia as a State or official symbol. This is the crown we see on most uniform buttons until the accession of Edward VII to the throne in 1901. There are lots of variations because there was no standard and the designers of insignia and buttons made their own interpretations.

Dome-shaped Tudor pattern crown.
Edward VII had noticed that there were different crowns on accoutrements, which even included some Continental crowns, and he wished to regulate the shape of the crown. He wanted one uniform crown to become the sealed pattern for the Services (the sealed patterns are kept by the War Office as standards to be adhered to).
The crown is dome-shaped vs. square or arched, and was/is sometimes referred to as the Tudor Crown because the design was somewhat modeled on a crown worn by Henry VII, the first Tudor king. But in shape it is very similar to Queen Victoria’s Small Diamond Crown. The subsequent kings retained this crown pattern to use with their individual cyphers – George V, Edward VIII and George VI.
This brings us to 1952 and the accession of Queen Elizabeth II. She decided that the St. Edward’s Crown should be represented above her cypher rather than a representation of a crown that did not actually exist, so she directed that a heraldic representation of the St. Edward’s Crown should take the place of the so-called Tudor Crown in all future designs.
Therefore, the terms King’s Crown, Queen’s Crown and Queen Victoria’s Crown, abbreviated KC, QC, and QVC, are incorrect or at best over-simplifications, prevalent among military badge collectors, that have spilled over in the button world. The terms are used in catalogues, lists, and on the internet. It is just a coincidence that in the last century four male monarchs who chose the so-called Tudor Crown as the state symbol, were followed by a Queen who chose a representation of the St. Edward’s Crown. The basic design of the St. Edward’s Crown has been used by eight kings and two queens up to Queen Elizabeth.

Rgds, Thomas
Absolutely fascinating, Thomas. Thank you.

Indeed, at the time Edward VII directed that the ‘Tudor Henry VII Crown’ alone should become the sealed pattern, there were six or seven totally different pattern crowns in evidence on accoutrements, colours, buttons etc., of the Army and Royal Navy, some of which (as you state) were foreign, continental crowns, with others being derivations of the British Crown.

I particularly like your summation of the oversimplification of the various abbreviations.

‘Dome-shaped’ is a very apt description. There is a wonderful diagram in an NA file on this subject showing a perfectly circular guide line upon which the ‘Tudor’ crown drawing has been beautifully constructed. A real delight to anyone interested in such things (as I am).

Thanks again.

JT
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