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  #1  
Old 31-12-20, 10:27 AM
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Default Welsh Guards Cloth Title- WWII/Post WWII

Hi Team

Im not to sure about this Welsh Guards cloth title with paste backed black cloth backing.

It has the embroidery and paste back style of WWII.

But the letters do not look correct as per my second Welsh Guard (green back).

It does have what I call a medium glow ie not bright but compared to the other it does stand out.

Could this be a post war example c 1948?

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2. Welsh Guards (WWII)-2.jpg (28.7 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg 2. Welsh Guards (WWII)-2 rev.jpg (33.4 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg 1. Welsh Guards (WWII)-1.jpg (29.6 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg 1. Welsh Guards (WWII)-1 reverse.jpg (34.1 KB, 44 views)
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  #2  
Old 31-12-20, 07:37 PM
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The second one isn't very good quality wise imho, I'd of gone for a better one.
Andy
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  #3  
Old 31-12-20, 08:31 PM
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Hi Andy

So both Post WWII c 1950's?

Phill
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  #4  
Old 31-12-20, 09:54 PM
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I would say 1st one could be WW2, I don't like the second one though.
Andy
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  #5  
Old 09-01-21, 05:21 PM
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Neither are WW2 according the impression I get regarding cloth titles.
The first is actually nothing like the "paste back" types with that style of embroidery and fonts, along with the cheese cloth backing.
I have more or less given up on collecting these as virtually anything not paste back or printed is seems to be held as post war. I personally have doubts about this, but the problem is that no one seems to know for sure.

CB
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Old 09-01-21, 07:22 PM
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The second title is made the same as an Irish Guards title i have, that is attributed to a bloke that died in WW2.
Andy
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Old 09-01-21, 08:13 PM
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Thanks guys

All opinions welcomed.

I purhased the Welsh and Irish Guards title's and posted on the forum.

Here is the responce,I will try to locate the orginal thread.

"The Square-End (called box end back then) cloth shoulder titles were in service with the Irish Guards through their first tour in the Desert in WW2 but so were the rounded end.
It was common for the IG to "tack" sew just the ends of the titles onto their desert shirts which arguably were not supposed to have insignia to them by design. They wanted to be able to cut them off in a hurry should some officer or tactical situation require it. This led to many of them being ripped off from daily use and wear.
There is not an official "end date" for the square end cloth shoulder titles but the square end titles were not made during the war. Existing stocks were used (keep in mind that pre-war England "stocks" of anything were LOW and quality tailors and cloth mills were plentiful so there was no reason to have loads of them on-hand). They were not uncommon but by the time the Italian campaign opened, they were already rare. All economy (p40) battledress would have had rounded-end titles.
So in short, if you were not one of the older troops in the regiment, you would likely have been issued round end cloth shoulder titles. By the time the Northwest Europe Campaign (DDay) kicked off, no square end titles were used. The Guards are fanatical about unformity and only round edged titles were used.
However - you have two good examples of wartime style and post-war titles there. Notice how much more material is at the end of the modern style title. This often leads to the mis-read of b&w photos from the war where people think they are seeing examples of square end titles worn on wool battledress.
Does that help? I've served as a US attache to the IG on an exchange tour and have been collecting and reading and scouring the guards museum private collection by special permission since 1990."


So back to my original question on regards to the original Welsh Guard Title on the purple back ground, would this be c 1948 as we do know that some manufacturers were still using serif lettering late 40's early 50's , which have been noted on the forum.

I know the "WWII" examples have rounded ends, is there referances to where Square ends were made to be used post WWII?

Apologies for putting in wrong section, as I was acttually working on a formation sign, Welsh title and another WWII era "US Patch" for comments and switched to Welsh Guard hence inadvertantly put in this section.

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1. Irish Guards (WWII)-1.jpg (31.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 1. Irish Guards (WWII)-1reverse.jpg (38.5 KB, 14 views)
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  #8  
Old 09-01-21, 08:39 PM
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I'll have a look for mine.
Andy
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  #9  
Old 09-01-21, 09:42 PM
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the four I have, a pair and two singles, the pair I think are wartime, the upper single perhaps just post war and the lower one post war
Attached Images
File Type: jpg welsh guards pair.jpg (36.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg welsh guards.jpg (92.8 KB, 27 views)
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  #10  
Old 09-01-21, 09:58 PM
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Thanks Jerry

Would you know about the round and square end history for the Welsh Guards?

cheers

Phill
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  #11  
Old 09-01-21, 10:19 PM
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I believe it applies to the welsh guards and irish guards who wore flat ended titles and the others all wore rounded versions, though in WWI the grens, or at least some of them, wore a flat ended version some of the time.

in WWI the wg were wearing the same titles as they were in WWII, or at least superficially and the wg were wearing serif titles with flat ends in 1940, which probably does not help
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Gren Guards embroidered.jpg (56.4 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg scots guards cloth title.jpg (48.3 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg welsh guards pc.jpg (40.6 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg welsh guards pc detail.jpg (20.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg welsh guards WWII scan v2 cropped watermarked.jpg (82.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg welsh guards WWII scan v2 - Copy (3).jpg (109.4 KB, 9 views)
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  #12  
Old 10-01-21, 08:45 AM
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Thanks Jerry

Every piece of information helps, its kinda like joining the dots.

Below are my Gren and Scots Guard titles.

Scots Guards has paste back.

Unsure when the rounded ends came into being for all WWII Guards.

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1. SCOTS GUARDS(WWII)-1.jpg (31.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 1. SCOTS GUARDS(WWII)-1reverse.jpg (34.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Grenadier Guards (WWII)-1.jpg (23.8 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Grenadier Guards (WWII)-1reverse.jpg (25.1 KB, 8 views)
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  #13  
Old 10-01-21, 07:54 PM
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This thread has confused me. Square ended shoulder titles for the Guards ( all ) were worn during WW1. Rounded ended shoulder titles were worn during WW2 by the Grenadier, Coldstream and Scots Guards. The Irish and Welsh wore again square ended shoulder titles.
Info from The Guards Division 1914-45 Elite Series
The bulletin of the Military Historical Society No. 242
Andy
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  #14  
Old 11-01-21, 05:33 PM
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Going by WWII images Welsh Guards retainned their square end titles thruought WWII and Irish Guards changed from Square to Round ends before Market Garden.

Phill
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