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  #1  
Old 07-10-12, 01:02 PM
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Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
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Default Some notes by Laurence Archer February 1980

Some time ago I was offered a copy of some notes put together by Laurence Archer in 1980.I finally got a copy of the notes this morning.

These were a result of the problem of restrike badges and in fact in the notes Laurence has a section headed:

1970`s:the decade of the restrike

He starts off with an introduction,then goes on to give his definitions of restrikes,copies and spurious badges.There are then some notes general guidance for collectors,finishes and fittings and Gaunt re-issues of the late 1970`s.

Laurence then begins with Cavalry badges and lists the copies he has come across. I presume he went on to deal with Yeomanry and infantry,my copy of the notes only deals with Cavalry badges.

I dont think the notes were ever turned into a published book which is a great pity, he does say that the full series of notes would be in loose leaf form.

I am attaching scans of a few pages which I hope are legible,some of the advice he gives is as relevant,if not more so today, than it was in 1980.

P.B.
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File Type: jpg img002.jpg (83.7 KB, 674 views)
File Type: jpg img003.jpg (99.0 KB, 585 views)
File Type: jpg img004.jpg (97.7 KB, 516 views)
File Type: jpg img005.jpg (98.4 KB, 514 views)
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  #2  
Old 07-10-12, 02:19 PM
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Peter,

Thank you. An invaluable set of notes and backs up what has been said on the Forum before about dodgy Gaunt Bham badges, ENGLAND badges as well as confirming the decades of use of the others.

Excellent work

Alan
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  #3  
Old 07-10-12, 02:45 PM
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Cool Laurie Archer

Sadly, I think that Laurie only put together his works on Cavalry badges, a man before his time.

He wrote the chapter on restrikes in both volumes of K&K which all forum members IMO should read and read again.

Rob
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  #4  
Old 07-10-12, 03:11 PM
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Thanks Alan.

Rob, I seem to recall that Laurie added at the end of his Sale Lists those restrikes he had seen since the last list but with little detail, I think you are probably right and it was only Cavalry badges which were covered in detail which, if it was the case, is a great pity. Scan of a couple more pages attached ( my copy of the notes extend to 35 pages ).

P.B.
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File Type: jpg img002.jpg (99.8 KB, 333 views)
File Type: jpg img003.jpg (93.0 KB, 289 views)
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  #5  
Old 07-10-12, 05:04 PM
revdougal revdougal is offline
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Laurie Archer published no more than the Cavalry, although I believe he had prepared much more.
I have kept some of his comments about these notes: He writes:-
"At the time of preparing this list, only 37 of a total subscription of 150 have subscribed to my restrike notes and, for a body of collectors devoted to the cause of original badges, that is pathetic, and a considerable disappointment to me.....
I do not intend to, indeed I cannot afford to, go to the expense of printing unless a lot more people subscribe and, if the worse comes to to the worse all subs received will be refunded and the project will be closed down....
The basic subscription to secure your copies is a mere £2....
Come on...how about it?"

After that I heard and received no more restrike notes.
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  #6  
Old 07-10-12, 05:09 PM
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Having reviewed my badges I am uncertain that he was 100% right about the upwards large font JR Gaunt London.

The theory would seem to confirm my suspicions about my w/m QOYY badge. However I also have a k/c RAPC badge with the Gaunt name running from the bottom of the slider and I just can't believe that it is a 1970s fake.
I have a number of 1970s and 80s JR Gaunt Bham a/a badges on which the name runs from top to bottom while others run bottom to top.

I would therefore advise caution before condemning any badge as a fake on the basis of which way the maker's name runs.
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  #7  
Old 07-10-12, 11:54 PM
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Hi Guys,

I can only speak for A/A badges so do take this on when reading here.

The maker mark position (up or down the slider) can go either way. If you look on pattern cards this will be apparent so should not be taken as a sign of authentic v's fake.

Some of the marks that are commented on as 'bad' are again found on standard pattern cards and while they may be 'bad' on non A/A badges they are OK on 'staybrites' especially if one reconciles the era of the badge with the mark. Again. this can be reconciled with existing pattern card dates and manufacturers documentation.

I did have trouble reading a bit of this but found it very interesting. I did note that the writer only commented on Gaunt and Firmin makers while there must be a lot of others that were not noted. For A/A badges I think I have managed to ID 14 different makers so assume that some of these must have made non A/A badges.

The issue with, what I call, unofficial commissions in A/A is that they came for one of two sources:

1) Dodgy dealers who commissioned them via established badges makers. These badges are unmarked but have a very distinct slider only found on Gaunt A/A badges so are easy to spot.

2) Possibly one company, after acquiring another, used the previous makers name. This seems to have occurred with the TAVR III badges noted in the writers text. However, the mark stamped is not one known to have been used by the company so are, again, easily recognised for what they are.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Chris
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  #8  
Old 09-10-12, 09:34 AM
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I have a number of photos of dodgy makers marks which might be useful to supplement this thread.

First of all a 1950s Large font Gaunt London mark (reading down the sldier) on a fake RDF badge.

Also available in all brass!

Next a South Staffs with the fake ENGLAND mark on its wide tapered slider as mentioned in Mr Archer's article.

This fake KRRC has the same slider shape but without the mark.

And some modern fakes with more inventive names.

A fake Lambournes on a spurious all w/m Wiltshire badge and a fake Tyneside Scottish with Made in England impressed on the back.

Finally the 1970s Gaunt Bham mark. If this mark is on any metal badge then it is a repro made for the collectors' market. Mr Archer's article in unquestionable evidence that this is a modern mark. It is also found on genuine a/a badges but these were also made for commercial sale as well.

A fake BP&Co badge
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GAUNT RDF FAKE.jpg (57.1 KB, 326 views)
File Type: jpg england sstaffs.jpg (1.7 KB, 1380 views)
File Type: jpg fake krrc.jpg (47.4 KB, 281 views)
File Type: jpg fake artists.jpg (28.9 KB, 264 views)
File Type: jpg fake grove badge.jpg (47.3 KB, 266 views)
File Type: jpg fake rdf 2.jpg (25.0 KB, 258 views)
File Type: jpg fake lambourne.jpg (33.1 KB, 262 views)
File Type: jpg fake TS.jpg (78.1 KB, 257 views)
File Type: jpg PA090003.jpg (82.8 KB, 229 views)
File Type: jpg GUANT BHAM.jpg (29.8 KB, 303 views)
File Type: jpg fake norfolks.jpg (24.5 KB, 222 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 14-09-14 at 07:28 AM.
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  #9  
Old 30-01-13, 08:06 AM
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If any members would like to borrow a copy of Lauries notes ( to study or copy ) please send me a PM. The only thing I would ask is that you return the notes as soon as possible.

P.B.
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  #10  
Old 30-01-13, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Having reviewed my badges I am uncertain that he was 100% right about the upwards large font JR Gaunt London.

The theory would seem to confirm my suspicions about my w/m QOYY badge. However I also have a k/c RAPC badge with the Gaunt name running from the bottom of the slider and I just can't believe that it is a 1970s fake.
I have a number of 1970s and 80s JR Gaunt Bham a/a badges on which the name runs from top to bottom while others run bottom to top.

I would therefore advise caution before condemning any badge as a fake on the basis of which way the maker's name runs.
Alan

I have had the same scratch of the head that you have......

All I can say is that in 1957 the LDYPAO had their badge struck in BIM and the Gaunt London mark was the upward type..... and then in 1963 on the intro of AA the mark was the same but going down the slider. Nothing is fake about the LDYPAO BIM .... it was issued right from the start. I have a 1950s Motto, 100% genuine, with the same mark going up the slider like the LDYPAO.

LA, I think, is referring to a select batch of badges "that shouldn't" have this type of slider..... and describes the implant of an older slider to a restrike badge.
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  #11  
Old 30-01-13, 09:49 AM
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Interesting to me is the QC Hampshires badge. I would like a tad more info on these as I reckon that as the regiment survived until 1992 these badges were made for the PRI (no evidence, just suspicion) and for the museum as souvenirs (no evidence, just a hunch). This means that they may well fall into that much debated grey area of 'tolerated' by the authorities status but never authorised for issue.
Matti
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Old 30-01-13, 10:56 AM
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On the subject of Archers notes..... does anyone have an idea of what he is talking about here?

B14 17th Lancers : Other items.
(a):-Skull and crossbones badge of slightly small size than the cap badge and offered variously as forage cap, or pouch badge. Cast in solid nickel and fitted with lugs. I havenít seen a die struck version yet but have no doubt that one is, or will be, around!


Does anyone have an image of the badge he is talking about?
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  #13  
Old 30-01-13, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
On the subject of Archers notes..... does anyone have an idea of what he is talking about here?

B14 17th Lancers : Other items.
(a):-Skull and crossbones badge of slightly small size than the cap badge and offered variously as forage cap, or pouch badge. Cast in solid nickel and fitted with lugs. I havenít seen a die struck version yet but have no doubt that one is, or will be, around!


Does anyone have an image of the badge he is talking about?
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=81890

Andy
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  #14  
Old 30-01-13, 11:56 AM
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So I take it that its just a cast version of the old large collar badge then? OK, thanks Andy.
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 30-01-13 at 12:10 PM.
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  #15  
Old 30-01-13, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
So I take it that its just a cast version of the old collar badge then? OK, thanks Andy.

Griff,
there is a medium sized Motto (bigger than a collar but smaller than the standard cap badge), which I'm pretty sure was worn by WO's! Alas it has been faked too!

Andy
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