Royal Marines Tapes/cloth title-several questions

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Team

Finding out more info these tapes.

The cash tapes are both WWII 17mm but the top one is a black Tape as opposed to the bottom Blue tape.

I have looked thru Jons book but there is no mention of colour although they look woven on Black tape to me.

Were both colours used? As the ones I have seen tend to be Blue Tape.

The third title is embroidered on felt , the reverse white thread doesnt glow and has serif letters,is this WWII? There is glue on the back from being in a scapbook.

In Jons book, it shows one like this, however on the forum there is a post that mentions it wasnt WWII.

cheers

Phill

[Royal]

Are you sure the cash tapes ARE WWII - they look much newer to me.

They were worn on wooly pullys (sewn into a curve to match the RM commando shoulder titles) by RMR Phase 2 recruits well into the early 1990s.

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Royal

I have been told that WWII RM cash tapes are 17mm(width).

The blue,bottom Tape, was confirmed by a senior forum member as WWII.

My undertanding 13mm are post WWII.

Happy to be corrected.

Phill

[Royal]

No worries - you can't see the sizing on those pics!

[Restrikes-ok]

my curvy ones through interest

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Hi Team

Finding out more info these tapes.

The cash tapes are both WWII 17mm but the top one is a black Tape as opposed to the bottom Blue tape.

I have looked thru Jons book but there is no mention of colour although they look woven on Black tape to me.

Were both colours used? As the ones I have seen tend to be Blue Tape.

The third title is embroidered on felt , the reverse white thread doesnt glow and has serif letters,is this WWII? There is glue on the back from being in a scapbook.

In Jons book, it shows one like this, however on the forum there is a post that mentions it wasnt WWII.

cheers

Phill

Interesting question Phill - I have noted colour variations in tapes manufactured by Cash too. Of course Cash have also manufactured name tapes generations - I recall the names of my twin brother in me in school PT kit etc (in Green on White) during 1960s etc. so mum could tell whose was who.

Cash is still going strong - this from their web site https://cashsnametapes.co.uk/
:

About Us
Cash's has been delivering quality since 1846, back then the company was England's leading silk ribbon manufacturer led by the pioneering fervour of two Quaker brothers, John and Joseph Cash, the elder sons of a wealthy stuff-merchant.

In a time where Huguenots were escaping persecution in Europe and Coventry was already becoming famous for its silk weaving and skilled jacquard weavers, Cash's like other merchants distributed silk to workers who owned their own jacquard looms at home and paid a fixed price for each finished piece. The brothers fast outgrew this system and instead became factory masters. In 1857, work began on a site at Kingfield Road which Cash's (UK) was to occupy for the next 138 years.

Despite the collapse of other British firms due to The Free Trade Bill of 1860 which allowed continental ribbons to flood the English market. Cash's survived by switching production to narrow frillings, to Victorian silk commemoratives and latterly to woven labels with which garment manufacturers could identify their products.

It was in the 1870s that the first Cash's woven nametape rattled off the jacquard looms. Since then, successive generations of school children have come to rely on this method of identification. In January 1964, Cash's (UK) was appointed 'Manufacturers of Woven Name Tapes to Her Majesty the Queen'.

Today, as the sole survivor of those historic Coventry weavers, Cash's has consolidated traditional craft skills with some of the industry's most advanced technologies and production techniques to offer our customers well priced fine quality name labels, clothing labels, personalised luggage straps, woven cards, bookmarks, pictures, and woven badges for well-known brands.

Our quality and market leadership are reflected in our diversifying range of woven products and an extensive list of fashion retailers, sportswear manufactures, establishment societies and institutions who have chosen to work with us. Cash's is the name behind the great name!"

I was told of the 17mm dimension of genuine WW2 Royal Marine many years ago, and also that 13mm were dubious. In truth, I wondered if 13mm could be post war, but remain suspicious due to the presence of 13mm numerals for units defunct after WW2. I am among a whole school of collectors who regard 13mm tape as almost certainly fake - certainly in the context of WW2.

However, I would be most interested to learn from any post WW2 veteran of the Corps as to what Cash tape insignia they wore, when and where worn, and its exact dimensions (Top to bottom).

I believe the navy and darker variants of WW2 17mm Cash Tapes simply reflect variation in material available to Cash - but, of course it would be nice to be definitive.

Thanks for asking the question Phill

Mike

[Mike B]

My response (above) does not address embroidered red on felt - a whole different subject. Just the silk woven Cash Tapes.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike

Appreciate the history of Cash tape which I will save.

I like the history of embroidery when it comes to military cloth "patches,"especially known embroidery styles.

I was just surprised there was a black variant,not the norm,I was wondering if it had anything to do with the red on black cloth titles.

Phill

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Thanks Mike

Appreciate the history of Cash tape which I will save.

I like the history of embroidery when it comes to military cloth "patches,"especially known embroidery styles.

I was just surprised there was a black variant,not the norm,I was wondering if it had anything to do with the red on black cloth titles.

Phill

Hi Phill
I have seen Navy Blue and a slightly lighter blue based 'Royal Marines / Commando' Cash Tapes of 17mm, never as dark as Black - possibly just variant material basis - but just do not know for sure.
I have enjoyed our past communications on embroidered badge manufacture.
All the best
Mike

PS - Spent some time with an RM veteran today who served 1960s - 1970s - his recollection was initially no insignia on Woolly Pullies etc, for a while; then adoption of embroidered titles, with later addition of embroidered Fighting Knife patch. He received these on return from Singapore. Only based on memory though. No recollection at all of Cash tapes.

[Postwarden]

The straight embroidered titles were mentioned in The Formation Sign Issue 228, April 2020 alongside the attached photo.

The article noted that "In April 1940 the Royal Marines began wearing Army-style battle dress, which from that summer carried metal ‘RM’ metal shoulder titles. As the official woven ‘Royal Marines’ arm badge made by J&J Cash of Coventry was not issued until March 1941 it seemed likely that in the ten months between the adoption of battle dress and the arrival of an official cloth arm badge, unofficial cloth titles more suitable for battle dress could have been worn. Proof of this appears in this photo of a Marine wearing a cloth title embroidered with serif letters similar to the straight embroidered example".

Jon

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike

I too enjoy the emails we have sent and I document/research where I can on our discussions and the relevent cloth insignia we talk about.

And i think in Jons post we might of come to a conclusion on the Black cash Tape.

Thanks Jon

When I was rereading your book, I couldnt find mention of the black cash tape but there was the red on black embroidered title and the dates of use.
I summized that the Black cash tape could of been an interim use before an official authorized tape ,based on the embroidered one.

Its not uncommon for unauthorized locally made, expedited insignia to be issued based on recommendations from senior commanders for espirit de corps and basic Identificationand also manufacturers asumptions.

Maybe Cash had taken upon itself and a gamble to produce an early issued black tape for use, based on the embroidered, variant?

Which would financially benefit Cash?

Jon what do you think of the embroidered title in the first post?

cheers Mike/Jon

Phill

[Mike B]

Phill
Some guidance here - check the Routine Order dates. The web site contains a lot of the back-up Routine Orders etc

https://rmhistorical.com/files/conte...20Insignia.pdf

https://rmhistorical.com/

Jon
Interesting - M Heraldry Society Bulletin 'The Formation Sign' is always useful

Mike

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Mike

Looking thru the images, I think the cash tapes shown are Black Tape and the cloth RM very similar to the one I posted.

However i'm on the fence with my one.

It does have serif letters(?) but unsure of the reverse thread as it does not glow.

Phill

[Phill Lockett]

I should add the below image.

Phill

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

I should add the below image.

Phill

Hello Phill - I am pleased to see the rmhistorical society site I sent a link to proved useful. The supporting paperwork on the site is very useful too.
All the best
Mike