more thoughts on Guards' full dress badges - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

grumpy · #1 09-12-09, 01:25 PM

The more I look at dozens [no, hundreds] of photos of Foot Guards ORs in full dress, the more I believe that all 'trade' badges have been and are on dark navy backing, not scarlet.
One problem in many period photos is that the dark collars and cuffs cannot be distinguished from the scarlet tunic, so in these there is no chance of seeing a badge backing. On many, however, the backing is decidedly dark.

This is my theory:

all rank badges up to full sergeant are/ have been sewn on to dark navy facing colour sewn on to scarlet sewn on to the tunic. This includes Good Conduct.

all 'trade' badges are/ have been worked on to dark navy blue material.

Don't get me wrong: one believable illustration showing 'on scarlet' will wreck this, and I would not lose a wink of sleep.

As a side issue, can we imagine any guardsman qualifying for the A wreath trade badge?: I have a photo of B wreath in wear, but not A.

My list of 'in wear' on dark navy includes:

wheel [carpenter], B trade, LG wreath, crossed rifles, para wings, para light bulb, pioneer, signaller.

Any more out there?

Mike_2817 · #2 09-12-09, 02:42 PM

Chevrons for Guards Full Dress are available for issue on Scarlet

Now for the un-informed, Ranks differ from the rest of the army!

Lance Corporal's where 2 Strips - White on Scarlet in Full Dress

Full Corporal's are called 'Lance Sergeants' and wear 3 White on Scarlet in Full Dress.

In this shot the NCO is a 'Lance Sergeant' (or Full Corporal for pay)

Full Sergeants wear Gold Lace Chevrons

Colour Sergeants wear a unique 'Colour Standard' over 3 Gold Chevrons
[Differant to each Regiment]

So in this shot of the band, it is a 'Colour Sergeant with a 'Lance Corporal behind.

Warrant Officer Class Two wears a larger version of the 'Colour Standard' in Full Dress

A Guards WOII Colour Sargeant Major

A WO1 (RSM) of course wears the 'Big Badge' Royal Arms

Other than Parachute Wings, Trade Badges are no longer worn.

Bullion Parachute Wings on Scarlet are available but are marked 'For Royal Horse Guards Dragoons' in JSP 768 (the new COSA)
Bullion SAS Wings are only available from stores on Dark Blue for No1 Dress [But not many are needed for Full Dress]
'Parachute Only' is an obsolete qualification and no courses held for many years, not even Sandhurst 'Rupert Bear' courses.

2747andy · #3 09-12-09, 03:07 PM

Hi Grumpy,
as mentioned above Chevrons are scarlet backed with white chevrons for Junior NCOs (2 - LCpl & 3 - LSgt), senior NCOs are Gold Chevrons on scarlet, Colour badges are backed with Dark blue/black and trade badges the same, although trade badges have not been worn (with the exception of Parachurte wings) on tunics for quite some years!

Best regards

Andy

grumpy · #4 09-12-09, 05:21 PM

Yes, thank you both.

I am taking a 'for ever' view ..... as interested, or more, in pre-1914 as post 1945.

My collection comprises just about every OR tunic badge I can envisage, past and present:

RSM, WO 1 not appointed RSM, RQMS, all five colour badges [off uniforms]including a GVI GG, Drum Major, gold sgt, LSgt, LCpl, Good Conduct badge.

And, of 'trade' B,LG, MG, signaller, carpenter, PTI, marksman, pioneer, para, light bulb ..... all substantiated by photographs 'in wear' on the tunic.

I have, in the bullion on dark navy, several which may have never been worn on the tunic: L, SMG, M, Medic, sniper, artificer, commando, SAS wings .... certainly not seen in my photo collection.

One strange fact: 'on scarlet' versions of MG, LG and the various crossed rifles badges continued in catalogues after 1918, when there was seemingly no Line Infantry tunic on which to place them.

wfrad · #5 09-12-09, 05:39 PM

There's a nice plate with illustrations of the Grenadier Guards 1914 in The Thin Red Line, Uniforms of the British Army between 1751 & 1914.

2747andy · #6 09-12-09, 05:41 PM

Mike,
I think your picture of a WO2 (Colour Sergeant Major - not a rank since victorian times?, C = Company) is a Canadian and not A British Guardsman. I am sure they wear very similar uniform though!

Best regards

Andy

grumpy · #7 09-12-09, 05:48 PM

yes, I have the Canadian colour badge, thinking about it.

Mike_2817 · #8 10-12-09, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Mike,
I think your picture of a WO2 (Colour Sergeant Major - not a rank since victorian times?, C = Company) is a Canadian and not A British Guardsman. I am sure they wear very similar uniform though!

Best regards

Andy

Thank you for pointing that out, you are of course right, it was a typo on my part. Picture is really to illustrate the badge in wear, so it makes no differance who is wearing it. I found it on a Google Image search.

One point however. Most Guards hold appointments and their actual ranks are the same as the rest of the Army. 'Lance Sergeants' are still 'Full Corporals' for pay purposes, and are only honorary members of the Sergeants Mess but do not have bunks within it for example.

I lived in at Chelsea Barracks Sergeants Mess for a while and never had any problems with their odd customs! in fact I enjoyed the banter. At the time I held the appountment of WOII SQMS (Staff Quartermaster Sergeant Major) followed by WO1 SSM (Staff Sergeant Major) in the RAOC. We had one other higher RAOC appointment, that of Conductor RAOC of which we had one in the mess at the time, who was DOWO London District (District Ordnance Warrant Officer) who I have in fact e-mailed the current incombant for some info.

2747andy · #9 10-12-09, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Thank you for pointing that out, you are of course right, it was a typo on my part. Picture is really to illustrate the badge in wear, so it makes no differance who is wearing it. I found it on a Google Image search.

One point however. Most Guards hold appointments and their actual ranks are the same as the rest of the Army. 'Lance Sergeants' are still 'Full Corporals' for pay purposes, and are only honorary members of the Sergeants Mess but do not have bunks within it for example.

I lived in at Chelsea Barracks Sergeants Mess for a while and never had any problems with their odd customs! in fact I enjoyed the banter. At the time I held the appountment of WOII SQMS (Staff Quartermaster Sergeant Major) followed by WO1 SSM (Staff Sergeant Major) in the RAOC. We had one other higher RAOC appointment, that of Conductor RAOC of which we had one in the mess at the time, who was DOWO London District (District Ordnance Warrant Officer) who I have in fact e-mailed the current incombant for some info.

Mike, You are very wrong by saying that LSgts are honourary mess members, on promotion to Lance Sergeant they become full members of the Mess, they live and dine in mess accommodation where available and hold all entitlement to use the mess, even the messes of other units, this is laid down in Queen's Regulations. They are not Full Corporals as the rank of Corporal does not exist in the Foot Guards. LSgt is equivalent to Cpl but they are certainly not Cpls. Rather like Bombardiers in the Artillery, they are not Corporals either, regardless of what it says on their pay statement.

Best regards - Andy

grumpy · #10 10-12-09, 02:30 PM

the Canadian badge

grumpy · #11 10-12-09, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Mike, You are very wrong by saying that LSgts are honourary mess members, on promotion to Lance Sergeant they become full members of the Mess, they live and dine in mess accommodation where available and hold all entitlement to use the mess, even the messes of other units, this is laid down in Queen's Regulations. They are not Full Corporals as the rank of Corporal does not exist in the Foot Guards. LSgt is equivalent to Cpl but they are certainly not Cpls. Rather like Bombardiers in the Artillery, they are not Corporals either, regardless of what it says on their pay statement.

Best regards - Andy

My virtually complete run of QR/KR from 1881 to 1955 tells me that, until the 1955 edition, Lance-sergeant was always an appointment for a corporal, not a rank. For some, it meant extra pay, for others, it was unpaid. The badge was always three chevrons. In 1946 all such appointments were abolished except for the Foot Guards.
I have no difficulty in accepting the Mess membership aspects, but I doubt if the most recent QR [1975 with many amendments] gives LSgt as a rank. In this case, I believe the pay statement is correct. If I am wrong, I will be happy to have chapter and verse spelled out.

As a footnote, the Household Cavalry introduced Lance-Corporal of Horse comparatively recently, I suspect in order to give their substantive Corporals reciprocal messing rights.

Mike_2817 · #12 10-12-09, 03:25 PM

Sorry Andy, but they are still only Corporals whatever they are called within the Guards.

Currant Other RANKS in the British Army are:

Cadet (Registered with a ACF/CCF Unit upto the age of 18 years and nine months)
Junior Soldier (Enlisted into a Regular Army Training Unit, Aged under 18½ years)
Private
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class Two
Warrant Officer Class One

(All other terms are Appountments)

I will however withdraw the 'Honoury Member' statement as on checking I am wrong.

Extract from Currant Queens Regulations 1975 Amd 27:

Quote:

Ranks of Non Commissioned Officers
56. By long established custom all full Corporals within the Household division are, from the time of their promotion to the rank of Corporal, appointed Lance Corporal of Horse or Lance Sergeant, and are dressed accordingly. As such, they are full members of the Warrant Officers' and Non Commissioned Officers' Mess or the Sergeants' Mess, on the same basis as a full Corporal of Horse or full Sergeant.

But at Chelsea Barracks they lived in the annex as space was limited I surpose!

grumpy · #13 10-12-09, 03:55 PM

I think there is convergence!

As an aside, does this mean that 'Guardsman', 'Rifleman' etc etc are currently appointments? If so, there has been a change since 1955, and King George V [for one] would not be happy, as he changed 'Guardsmen' from 'Privates' in 1919 or thereabouts.

Mike_2817 · #14 10-12-09, 04:15 PM

Another extract to prove the point:

Quote:

9.172. Soldiers

Rank Appointment
Private, which includes:

Trooper
Gunner
Sapper
Signaller
Guardsman
Fusilier
Kingsman
Rifleman
Ranger
Airtrooper
Craftsman
Musician

An appointment on the establishment of a unit or corps, such as clerk, bandsman, and for soldiers who are officer cadets undergoing training at an officer cadet training establishment, under officer, cadet sergeant, cadet corporal and cadet lance corporal.

As an another aside, I have the Electronic Version of the 1975 Queens Regulations (in MS Word Format) which is about 3.5MBs - PM me if you would like a copy.

davec2 · #15 10-12-09, 04:38 PM

Hi Mike,

I don't know why it changed as you quote [ Cadet (Registered with a ACF/CCF Unit upto the age of 18 years and nine months)
Junior Soldier (Enlisted into a Regular Army Training Unit, Aged under 18½ years) ] end quote.

I was a Junior Leader, I enlisted in May 1960, two weeks before my 15th birthday, the term was two and a half years and then we were enlisted into the Regular Army at 17 1/2 years, not 18 1/2 ???

Am I understanding your quote correctly, I don't know the current regulations but I do wonder why they were altered ?

Regards, Dave.