Leeds Rifles Erased Numeral

[Alan O]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leeds-Rifl...vip=true&rt=nc

£42 for an erased numeral version.

An erased 7th Bn badge but unlike mine is in Blackened brass. They have been discussed before but did anyone reach a conclusion as to why this was done? Was it a temporary post war measure for the amalgamated regt before the 7th/8th Bns new badge was produced?

[Phil2M]

As I understood it, this was done during the war when numbers of men were so low that the 7th and 8th were pooled together. I have seen badges collected in the field with the numbers erased.

[Alan O]

Phil

Whilst the 1st/7th and 2nd/7th and the 1/8th and 2nd/8th Battalions did merge/ reduce to cadre strength during WW1, both the 1st/7th and what became the 8th Bns were in separate divisions and retained their own identities. The numbers were low and battalions were pooled but it was the paired 1st/2nd Bns and not a mixture of the 7th and 8th Bn. If I read the LLT correctly oth the 7th and 8th Bns finished the war as separate battalions.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/...hire-regiment/

If this was indeed a wartime practice as you suggest then I can only suggest that the 8th Bn ran out of badges and adulterated 7th Bn badges to make up the shortfall?

Both Bns were reliant on the TF Association for their distinctive badges and after 1916 any new recruit would have been issued a standard W.Yorks badge with the horse on it by the Army. It would be interesting to know when the s/pattern date is for issued badges.

[Deejayuu]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

As I understood it, this was done during the war when numbers of men were so low that the 7th and 8th were pooled together. I have seen badges collected in the field with the numbers erased.

I think Phils decsription is correct but i have never seen a genuine blackened badge only all brass ones. Marcus is your man for this but i dont` think this badge would have been issued in blackened form.

Cheers, Dave

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Phil

Whilst the 1st/7th and 2nd/7th and the 1/8th and 2nd/8th Battalions did merge/ reduce to cadre strength during WW1, both the 1st/7th and what became the 8th Bns were in separate divisions and retained their own identities. The numbers were low and battalions were pooled but it was the paired 1st/2nd Bns and not a mixture of the 7th and 8th Bn. If I read the LLT correctly oth the 7th and 8th Bns finished the war as separate battalions.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/...hire-regiment/

If this was indeed a wartime practice as you suggest then I can only suggest that the 8th Bn ran out of badges and adulterated 7th Bn badges to make up the shortfall?

Both Bns were reliant on the TF Association for their distinctive badges and after 1916 any new recruit would have been issued a standard W.Yorks badge with the horse on it by the Army. It would be interesting to know when the s/pattern date is for issued badges.

Alan,

This badge appears to be an unworn one which I got outbid on such is life as all the examples I have, have been worn, It should be black, badges that are gilding metal had the blackening removed.

You are very close to the mark with your comments regarding the 7th and 8th battalions West Yorkshire Regiment. In common with other Territorial Force Battalions on declaration of war in 1914 both Battalions duplicated and ended up with 1/7 & 1/8 in 49th WR Div with 2/7 & 2/8 in 62nd WR Div, subsequently 3/7 & 3/8 were formed as home based Battalions, 3/7th absorbed 3/8th.

1/7th never amalgamated with any other unit and finished the War as such.

1/8th transferred to 62nd Div in 1918 and absorbed/amalgamated with 2/8th and became the 8th Battalion.

2/7th reduced to cadre strength in 1918.

2/8th absorbed by/merged with 1/8th in 1918.

The removed number badge is due to a procurement error, when the WD took over responsibility for providing TF cap badges they missed the SPN for the 8th badge which was not rectified to some time later, so 7th badges would have been issued with the number removed, these come in at least 2 types, number stamped flat and number filled flat, all should be blackened.

I hope the above goes some way to removing the misconception that many people have about the 7th & 8th Battalions merging, a misconception that runs on into post WW1 and the 7th/8th Cap badge, but that's another story.

If I ever get round to publishing my Leeds Rifles insignia book which has the details of the SPN dates and the likes I will of course get the Forum know. This unfortunately may be some time coming as my day job keeps me all to much occupied at the moment, role on retirement.

Kind Regards,

FMT600

[davidwyke]

[QUOTE=FMT600

I hope the above goes some way to removing the misconception that many people have about the 7th & 8th Battalions merging, a misconception that runs on into post WW1 and the 7th/8th Cap badge, but that's another story.

If I ever get round to publishing my Leeds Rifles insignia book which has the details of the SPN dates and the likes I will of course get the Forum know. This unfortunately may be some time coming as my day job keeps me all to much occupied at the moment, role on retirement.

Kind Regards,

FMT600[/QUOTE]

Hi Chaps

It is "another story" but it's worth clarifying here that the only thing combined about the 7th & 8th (Leeds Rifles) Bn's between the wars was the badge they wore. It's easy to understand where the confusion arises, given the badge and the impression of a combined battalion given by various published sources.

The combined 7th/8th cap badge was, I believe, introduced c. 1924/1925 but the two battalions remained as separate units up to and including when the 7th went to the RTC and the 8th went to the RA in the mid/late 1930's.

So, why did they have a "combined" badge then, I hear you ask. To be honest, I don't really know,. I've always assumed it was for nothing more than reasons of economy. Alternatively, perhaps there were proposals to combine the two battalions and the badge was produced as a result, but the proposals were abandoned. That's all conjecture though. Maybe "FMT 600" can provide a definitive answer?

David

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Chaps

It is "another story" but it's worth clarifying here that the only thing combined about the 7th & 8th (Leeds Rifles) Bn's between the wars was the badge they wore. It's easy to understand where the confusion arises, given the badge and the impression of a combined battalion given by various published sources.

The combined 7th/8th cap badge was, I believe, introduced c. 1924/1925 but the two battalions remained as separate units up to and including when the 7th went to the RTC and the 8th went to the RA in the mid/late 1930's.

So, why did they have a "combined" badge then, I hear you ask. To be honest, I don't really know,. I've always assumed it was for nothing more than reasons of economy. Alternatively, perhaps there were proposals to combine the two battalions and the badge was produced as a result, but the proposals were abandoned. That's all conjecture though. Maybe "FMT 600" can provide a definitive answer?

David

David,

1925 is correct for the sealing date for the 7th/8th badge, I have no defining answer as to why both Battalions wore the same cap badge, I very much suspect as you suggest expense comes to the fore during that period of military austerity and ever tightening purse strings.

What is interesting and goes against the grain for Territorial badges is that some of the battle honours belong to Regular Battalions of the 14th of Foot/West Yorkshire Regiment and not the 3rd VB, 7th or 8th Battalions. Again this badge was only supplied at taxpayers expense in black.

Kind Regards,

FMT600