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  #31  
Old 29-10-13, 04:31 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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Definately deliberate voids for piercing.

It could be a practice piece for an apprentice that broke partway through or (more likely) a broken shaving die made to refine a poor or damaged cut left by a previous piercing die.


Usually the base piece is hardened and the cutting punches are roughed close to shape but left soft, so they can be inserted and the hard base used to shave them a few thou and the rest cut back closer.

The actual punching pins are fairly easy to damage being so small so aren't always hardened as much as they need a degree of flexability to resist the forces, but not too much they deflect.

That's possibly what happened in this case as the top edge of the cushion would receive a lot of stress pushing against because of the angleing of the cutting action.
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  #32  
Old 29-10-13, 04:54 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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This thread has gone a long way towards explaining why we get slight differences with badges. I have a Royal Scots cap badge which was given to me over sixty years ago, badly struck it is a badge that I cherish, others possibly would consign it to the junk bin.

Thanks for all the inputs in to what has been a highly educational (for me) thread.

Rob
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  #33  
Old 29-10-13, 05:35 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Fascinating stuff, Niebelungen or should we call you Alberich?

How do voids get missed, for example the 3rd County of London Yeomanry around the rifle slings. Are some voids deliberately avoided (no pun intended again) due to the cost involved in making a die to take them out where it would be cost effective to drill and fret them?

Do you know anything about the braize used prior to and during WW1. I ask as it appears to be very liquid once heated, similar to silver solder but different in colour but probably with a similar melting point. I recently tried to fix a badge where I wanted to use old split pins as wires which were the correct diameter but they tended to melt (I was using silver solder flux treating the slit pin no different than a regular copper loop). Model railway enthusiasts created some superb locomotives using sheet brass, silver solder and an iron heated on the gas ring during the inter war period but it wasn't until the 80's where, low melt solder made it easier for everyone. Silver solder is a huge step on and copper soldering or braising further still so were the ladies in the factory using welding techniques with copper rods and oxy-axcetylene or is there a lost formula out there?
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  #34  
Old 29-10-13, 09:07 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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I suspect a significant number of badges were hand voided especially in the early days and as piercing dies broke the rest of a batch may well have been hand worked if the cost of a new die was more than the labour incurred.

A skilled worker could probably complete a glengary type in about 5-10 minutes, so a group of 10 women could easily turn out around 1,000 badges a day.

I'd suspect there were a couple of separate dies doing different areas on that badge, fitting lots of small areas together in one would make it liable to be weak.
There might have been some economy measure too on a later order or even a die gets lost, which isn't that uncommon either.

Braizing (hard soldering) hasn't really changed much in the last 200 years, and only the tools have altered to make it easier. The 1920 or 30's saw more of a switch to silver solder from brass as it became cheaper, and the 1860/70 saw gas torches become more common (coal gas and rubber pipes/bellows), but you'd be amazed at what you can do with a charcoal burner and a mouth blow pipe.
A lot of old school jewelers, even up to today, can still use a bunsen type burner or domestic gas and mouth pipe.

One of the main reasons for brass/bronze braizing was your factory produced it for free as scrap, either trimmings, filing or sawing dust etc. And you didn't have to worry so much about H&S rules about how much lead, zinc or antimony/arsenic etc you mix in with it.

Resistance (electrical) and now laser welding are more common than oxy-accetylene as it's far less explosive and cheaper in factories, which is more reserved for steel and other high temp metals.

Most glass enamelling on badges is done with an open torch rather than a kiln even today.

The big difference from today is the idea of making your own braize or solder from scratch wasn't alien. A book like Henley's Formulas from 1903 devotes about 10 pages to different compositions
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  #35  
Old 29-10-13, 09:47 PM
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Revisit this thread I posted last year. A good example of a faulty process.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=28986
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  #36  
Old 29-10-13, 10:30 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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Interesting example.

May well be it either missed a second die clipping process that removed the two extra parts or else those areas were left to be hand done.
Or they did the two parts first in a piercing die before the major edge trimming die.

( The reason for the foreleg piece being a separate process rather than all in the perimeter, could well be because of the narrow length of the leg at the knee may cause problems with bending and splitting etc, whereas piercing out the small section first or last (with the surrounding flash still in place) it would support it much more.
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  #37  
Old 31-10-13, 12:18 AM
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Excellent thread. I've posted this REME badge before on the forum, but it shows that in this case the piercing and trimming was done in one go, although not very successfully.
REME obverse.jpg

REME reverse.jpg

Rgds, Thomas.
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  #38  
Old 31-10-13, 09:21 AM
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Here is a (My ref:- Smith & Wright Ltd) Motto... this shows that a shaped blank that has been stamped off center next to a good one.
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File Type: jpg SReBayFeb13.jpg (60.4 KB, 30 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 31-10-13 at 09:50 AM.
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  #39  
Old 31-10-13, 09:36 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Griff,
How on earth can you be sure this is a S&W produced pair of badges, this is yet again pure speculation! You could be correct in that it is probably made by them as it is similar to other maker marked examples? But unless badges are marked, came off sealed pattern cards or either Messrs Smith or Wright dropped them off at your house, then it can be nothing more than an educated guess?

I don't want to appear facetious but, here as in many other threads you identify items as being made by definite manufacturers, when as they are unmarked this can only be speculative? There are many viewers of this Forum and as you are such a prolific poster, I do worry that misinformation could be taken as fact?

Why not just say probably made by rather than speculate?

Best regards

Andy
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  #40  
Old 31-10-13, 09:50 AM
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Andy

Your absolutely right.... I have amended.
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File Type: jpg SReBayFeb13.jpg (60.4 KB, 22 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 31-10-13 at 09:55 AM.
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  #41  
Old 31-10-13, 12:08 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Here's a nice example of a GvR Engineers die, possibly female due to the lack of detail to the lettering or for a two part S/G badge?

Andy
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File Type: jpg DSCF1002.jpg (70.4 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1004.jpg (48.7 KB, 16 views)

Last edited by 2747andy; 31-10-13 at 01:20 PM.
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  #42  
Old 31-10-13, 05:12 PM
Charlie585 Charlie585 is offline
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'Two part S/G GV RE' - Not a badge I recall seeing?

Ry
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  #43  
Old 31-10-13, 05:58 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Ry,
you are quite right! Having dug out my boxes of R.E. badges, the GvR and EviiR officers dress badges appear to be Gilt. The first S&G Example being GviR! I also dug out my GvR OSDs and I'm now pretty sure the die is female (?) and with the space between the the upper loops of the G & R and the inner edge of the garter strap, it's almost certainly for a c.1916 All Gm Economy badge?

Thanks for making me do my homework, it turns outs to be even more interesting than just a desk paperweight, considering my interest in E.I. badges!

Best regards

Andy
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Last edited by 2747andy; 31-10-13 at 06:05 PM.
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  #44  
Old 31-10-13, 06:04 PM
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This is one of my paperweights.

P.B.
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  #45  
Old 31-10-13, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
Here's a nice example of a GvR Engineers die, possibly female due to the lack of detail to the lettering or for a two part S/G badge?

Andy
It is a male die, not a female die.
Unless you have edited the picture, it has positive text, which means it is pressed against the back of the badge to be.
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