1st vol battalion the wiltshire regiment

[Peter Brydon]

I don't know if this adds anything to my previous post but I noticed that a friend of mine had what he described as a Wiltshire 1st V.B. collar in his collection so I had a look to see what Churchill has to say which is:

Nominated a VB of the Duke of Edinburgh`s ( Wiltshire Regiment ) 1st July 1881 but never adopting the title, redesignated the 1st Wiltshire V.R.C. (1VB ) in December 1891....."

You can only assume that the unit must have been under continuous pressure to fall in line with all the other Rifle Volunteer units that had become Volunteer Battalions throughout its existence.

P.B.

[49lassiepen]

Many thanks Peter ref this collar do you know the wording on it See my collar board in my album for volunteer collars Re CHURCHILL collar badge book see acknowledgements
David

[Peter Brydon]

David,

I don't, the collar is on a photo and the wording on the badge is not too clear on the photo. My friend has disposed of his collar badge collection but I usually speak to him on Mondays and I will ask him about the collar and what made him put the caption on it that he did.

Peter

( that's three of us in the acknowledgements in Colin`s book )

[49lassiepen]

Peter was the person J.D if so I purchased his wilts collar collection
David

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by 49lassiepen

To FMT 600 if you take the trouble to read my post i said this was a genuine Firmin badge I am not sure which vol battalions to the York and Lancs do not exist A member of this forum has produced an excellent book on the badges of this regiment and can find no reference in it to such volunteer battalions -perhaps you could enlighten me and others

Fisrtly I did take the trouble to read your initial post and to quote you ''but has been made into a fantasy item by the addition of a scroll'', I do believe I referred to fake land in my post (which you can take as meaning a fantasy item). As already commented on by someone else it does not appear from the photos that the badge has been doctored and unless one has a close up look at it its hard to say for sure, hence my remarks.

Secondly if you take the trouble to read what I wrote, at no time did I say any Y&L VB battalion did not exist but inferred that their are a number of variations (reversed metals/metal & enamel as it happens) in both cap and collars, perhaps I should have clearer in spelling that out, to which neither Ivan (Badger123 the forum member who authored the Y&L book) nor myself have been able to confirm as to which VB or possibly militia battalion wore them, some of these badges are not in Ivan's book (but are in my collection for one and probably other members collections) and I don't believe the Y&L museum have examples of them all as to which you can always check with Ivan. If you also search the forum there have been a number of previous posts referring to variations of the Y&L badges.

FMT600

[badgecollector]

hi guys
i am following this thread with interest and i have no idea if the battalion existed or not however my question is regarding the badge.
from what i can see the badge looks very well cast. not die struck but cast and the firmin plate looks to be part of the casting and not a separate piece.
are my eyes deceiving me? or is this how firmin produced some badges?
also on the close up of the front, there appears to be small balls of metal to the top corner of the left hand point of the cross and the left side of the top arm of the cross?? there is no doubt it is 3 piece.
thanks
bc

[49lassiepen]

Once again i said the badge looked genuine not a spurious Firmin mark but with the addition of a scroll I know of people who could do this which would be very difficult to detect I was not on about variations etc of which i have many in my general line collection of all regiments [all plastics as K.K/ww ! as andy list most T.A collars s/t etc ] including Y & L -my yorkshire based service battalions obtained from N.L
Regarding the collar mentioned by Peter I have this collection and it was a general vol collar

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/resear...rritorial-army

If the regtl museum states that there was no 1VB but that it remained the Wilts RV and the VB title was only used by the 2nd Vol bn then that should be enough evidence that there was no such unit pre 1908.

Note that there was a WW1 raised bn which does match:

1st Volunteer Battalion Wiltshire Regiment.

This Battalion was raised in the early days of the First World War for purposes of home defence, and was composed largely of men who were too old or to young for more active service, or not up to the physical standard required. 2000 men were trained by the Battalion, which reached a high state of efficiency, and 600 men were passed on to the Regular Army. This unit is not to be confused with the early volunteer units, and were the forerunners of the 2nd World War Home Guard

Yes Roy, I am aware of the old VTC unit that became a Wilts VB in the last year of WW1, I have made posts myself about these lesser known units. In years gone by I would have quoted regimental museums as the fount of all knowledge and books by Westlake, Churchill and Kipling and King as beyond any contradiction, but after 40+ years of my own study I have come to realise that errors are made and that not all is always as it seems. I really was just supporting the tentative suggestion made by Peter Brydon in his post. It is of course entirely up to you (and 49lassiepen) what to make of things.

[Alan O]

I fear that this VB Dorsetshires is spurious with an added scroll,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1st-Vol-Bn...3D351523500974

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I fear that this VB Dorsetshires is spurious with an added scroll,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1st-Vol-Bn...3D351523500974

Definately. In fact the whole badge I think. That font is typical of fake VB badges.

regards

[Keith Blakeman]

Font has nothing to do with this badge, it's completely fictitious.

This is the only badge the single Dorsetshire VB wore.

[Alan O]

The badge is post 1906 regular with fake scroll added and a white plating. Fantasy as Keith says.

[49lassiepen]

Badge sold for £91.50 someone has either found a ''sleeper '' at bargain price but i'm still certain this is wrong or £91.50 to the rubbish bin
David
From P.M's doubts regarding another vol badge for sale

[Peter Brydon]

I have said this before and make no apologies for saying it again, after many years of collecting ,I have come to the conclusion that there are no experts just collectors with a bit more experience than other collectors in certain fields.

One can come to an opinion on an item based on years of experience and after consulting all the books and ones peers and then find there are people who do not agree with your conclusion.

At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide which items to include in their collection. I have had items that I have weeded out after owning for years when for whatever reason a doubt has arisen and I have let items go years ago that with hindsight ( and more knowledge ) I should have kept.

This is the fascination and frustration of the hobby.

P.B.

[Alan O]

Peter

In this case the VB scroll must date before 1908. The Regular Battalions were wearing the old Victorian style badges up to 1905 as is shown by contempory photos in the Keep Museum. Again the regtl history states that the wide wreath version was then issued to ORs c.1906. This is in turn was replaced by the standard pattern badge which the badge is based on.

So for this badge to be genuine we would have to assume that the VB ceased wearing their own badge and right at the end of their existence in 1908 got hold of the standard slidered pattern badge that the Regulars can, at best, only have just recieved and decided to add their own scroll and have it plated.

Considering that in 1908 the TF then went to blank scroll badges which seem to have been lugged, I would suggest that £91 has been wasted on an old fake. I am sure that the seller has bought an old collection and sold it in good faith but old collections do contain such items.

Vbs are very frustrating to collect due to the lack of recorded information, the short existence of the units concerns, the change of badge designs in 1905 with the SA honours awards and the proliferation of fakes, old and new, that take advantage of this. It is Gaylor's book that records the production of 2 VB Dorsetshire badges when no such unit exisited. My bet was that it was the same regular badge type with a 2 VB scroll stuck on to it.